Author: Eelco de Groot
Date: 19:00:06 09/29/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 29, 2003 at 11:18:48, Roy Eassa wrote: >On September 29, 2003 at 10:52:38, Slater Wold wrote: > >>On September 29, 2003 at 10:36:10, Alexander Yates wrote: >> >>>In Reply to: Re: Garry Kasparov - My Great Predecessors posted by Mark Young on >>>September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43: >>> >>> >>>On September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43, Mark Young wrote: >>> >>>>On September 28, 2003 at 04:38:08, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 28, 2003 at 00:15:02, Mark Young wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>H. Pillsbury - Em. Lasker >>>>>>After whites 17 move of f5 >>>>>> >>>>>>[D]2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1 >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Here GM Kasparov gives 17..Rxc3 a (!!) mark. With the comment that the move >>>>>>Rxc3!! is beyond the powers of even a strong computer. >>>>>> >>>>>>Is Rxc3 really beyond the powers of a strong computer? Or is the move Rxc3 not >>>>>>worthy of a (!!) because it leads only to a draw. This is what the computers see >>>>>>after blacks 17..Rxc3. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I do not think that 17...Rxc3 will be played by >>>>> any computer program. And by the way: I have still >>>>> not found a win for Black in the following line: >>>>> >>>>> [Event "40'/40+40'/40+40'"] >>>>> [Site "MyTown"] >>>>> [Date "????.??.??"] >>>>> [Round "?"] >>>>> [White "Neue Partie"] >>>>> [Black "?"] >>>>> [Result "1/2-1/2"] >>>>> [SetUp "1"] >>>>> [FEN "2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1"] >>>>> [PlyCount "23"] >>>>> [TimeControl "40/2400:40/2400:2400"] >>>>> >>>>> 1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >>>>> 6. Ke1 Qc3+ 7. Ke2 Qc2+ 8. Rd2 Qe4+ 9. Kd1 Qb1+ 10. Ke2 Qe4+ >>>>> 11. Kd1 Qb1+ 12. Ke2 Qe4+ 1/2-1/2 >>>> >>>>I came to the same conclusion. I don't think there is a win after Rxc3 with best >>>>defense. This is why computer will not play the move. Computers see Bd7 holding >>>>a much better advantage. And it seems the computers are correct. >>> >>> >>>The computers are not correct. They can't see deep enough to find Rxc3!! >>>followed by Ra3! >>> >>>This game I'm sure has been well analyzed by many Grandmasters, not just >>>Kasparov, who BTW is the highest rated player of all time! >>> >>>There are many combinations still too difficult for computers, and that has been >>>demonstrated by various tests. Nolot comes to mind...#6 I believe. Regardless, >>>we know some combinations are too deep or abstruse for the computer at present >>>time. >>> >>>Even if a computer does find the move, it will take a very long time and it may >>>not be for the correct reasons. >>> >>>1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >>>6. Ke1 Qe3+ 7. Be2 fxe6 8. Qh3! Bc3+! 9. Kf1 Rf8+ 10. Bf3 Qe4! -+ >>> >>>There are other variations of course and the B retreat has merit so the machines >>>most likely will stay with Bd7, instead of moving on to the more complex Rxc3!! >>> >>>Just for the record, Lasker made this sacrifice famous, and Rxc3 is now regarded >>>as thematic. >>> >>>Alex >>> >>>P.S. >>> >>>Give this position to Deep Junior 8 and let it run a long time if you have a >>>dual, or Junior 8 if you have a very fast single...it might find Rxc3!!...? >> >>fxe6 is not best. e7 and this draws. I've looked over this several times. > >Do you mean this line? > >1... Rxc3! 2. fxe6 Ra3! 3.e7 Re8 4. bxa3 Qb6+ 5. Kc2 Rc8+ 6. Kd2 Bxd4! -+ I don't know if it is correct, but after 1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 my Rebel testversion 5so now thinks White still has a draw. : [D]5rk1/pp3pp1/4Pb1p/q2p3Q/3P4/r7/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R w - - 1 1 00:00:00.2 3,14 1 106 bxa3 Qb6+ Kc1 fxe6 00:00:00.2 4,17 1 206 exf7+ Rxf7 bxa3 00:00:00.2 3,70 2 515 exf7+ Rxf7 bxa3 Qb6+ Kc1 Bxd4 Qxd5 00:00:00.4 1,39 3 2332 exf7+ Rxf7 bxa3 Qb6+ Ka1 Bxd4+ Rxd4 00:00:00.6 0,53 4 15682 exf7+ Rxf7 bxa3 Qb6+ Kc2 Rc7+ Kd2 Qe6 00:00:00.7 1,24 4 27934 e7 Rxa2 exf8Q+ Kxf8 Qe2 Ra1+ Kc2 00:00:01.1 1,10 5 58598 e7 Rxa2 exf8Q+ Kxf8 Qg4 Ra1+ Kc2 00:00:01.8 1,16 6 175834 e7 Rxa2 exf8Q+ Kxf8 Qf5 Ra1+ Kc2 00:00:03.0 1,02 7 389056 e7 Rxa2 exf8Q+ Kxf8 Bc4 dxc4 Qxa5 00:00:08.2 0,20 8 1445500 e7 Rxa2 exf8Q+ Kxf8 Bc4 dxc4 Qxa5 00:00:41.2 0,00 9 8415019 e7 Re8 bxa3 Qb6+ Kc2 Qc7+ Kb1 Qb6+ 00:03:14.6 -0,92 10 41688334 e7 Re8 bxa3 Qb6+ Bb5 Qxb5+ Ka1 Qc5 00:08:07.0 0,00 10 105161241 bxa3 Qb6+ 00:17:51.4 0,00 11 230462866 bxa3 Qb6+ Kc2 Qc7+ Kb1 Qb6+ Kc2 Qc7+ 00:38:11.6 0,00 12 495725373 bxa3 Qb6+ 01:26:54.5 0,00 13 1156613636 bxa3 Qb6+ Kc2 Qc7+ Kb1 Qb6+ Kc2 Qc7+ 02:40:45.4 0,00 14 2137461754 bxa3 Qb6+ Kc2 Qc7+ Haven't tried the position after 4...Qc7+ or maybe 4...Rc8, or 4.Bb4 Till later, Eelco
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