Author: Igor Gorelikov
Date: 05:12:27 09/30/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 29, 2003 at 18:09:39, Slater Wold wrote: >On September 29, 2003 at 10:58:35, Robin Smith wrote: > >>On September 29, 2003 at 10:52:38, Slater Wold wrote: >> >>>On September 29, 2003 at 10:36:10, Alexander Yates wrote: >>> >>>>In Reply to: Re: Garry Kasparov - My Great Predecessors posted by Mark Young on >>>>September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43: >>>> >>>> >>>>On September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43, Mark Young wrote: >>>> >>>>>On September 28, 2003 at 04:38:08, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 28, 2003 at 00:15:02, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>H. Pillsbury - Em. Lasker >>>>>>>After whites 17 move of f5 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>[D]2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Here GM Kasparov gives 17..Rxc3 a (!!) mark. With the comment that the move >>>>>>>Rxc3!! is beyond the powers of even a strong computer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Is Rxc3 really beyond the powers of a strong computer? Or is the move Rxc3 not >>>>>>>worthy of a (!!) because it leads only to a draw. This is what the computers see >>>>>>>after blacks 17..Rxc3. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I do not think that 17...Rxc3 will be played by >>>>>> any computer program. And by the way: I have still >>>>>> not found a win for Black in the following line: >>>>>> >>>>>> [Event "40'/40+40'/40+40'"] >>>>>> [Site "MyTown"] >>>>>> [Date "????.??.??"] >>>>>> [Round "?"] >>>>>> [White "Neue Partie"] >>>>>> [Black "?"] >>>>>> [Result "1/2-1/2"] >>>>>> [SetUp "1"] >>>>>> [FEN "2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1"] >>>>>> [PlyCount "23"] >>>>>> [TimeControl "40/2400:40/2400:2400"] >>>>>> >>>>>> 1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >>>>>> 6. Ke1 Qc3+ 7. Ke2 Qc2+ 8. Rd2 Qe4+ 9. Kd1 Qb1+ 10. Ke2 Qe4+ >>>>>> 11. Kd1 Qb1+ 12. Ke2 Qe4+ 1/2-1/2 >>>>> >>>>>I came to the same conclusion. I don't think there is a win after Rxc3 with best >>>>>defense. This is why computer will not play the move. Computers see Bd7 holding >>>>>a much better advantage. And it seems the computers are correct. >>>> >>>> >>>>The computers are not correct. They can't see deep enough to find Rxc3!! >>>>followed by Ra3! >>>> >>>>This game I'm sure has been well analyzed by many Grandmasters, not just >>>>Kasparov, who BTW is the highest rated player of all time! >>>> >>>>There are many combinations still too difficult for computers, and that has been >>>>demonstrated by various tests. Nolot comes to mind...#6 I believe. Regardless, >>>>we know some combinations are too deep or abstruse for the computer at present >>>>time. >>>> >>>>Even if a computer does find the move, it will take a very long time and it may >>>>not be for the correct reasons. >>>> >>>>1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >>>>6. Ke1 Qe3+ 7. Be2 fxe6 8. Qh3! Bc3+! 9. Kf1 Rf8+ 10. Bf3 Qe4! -+ >>>> >>>>There are other variations of course and the B retreat has merit so the machines >>>>most likely will stay with Bd7, instead of moving on to the more complex Rxc3!! >>>> >>>>Just for the record, Lasker made this sacrifice famous, and Rxc3 is now regarded >>>>as thematic. >>>> >>>>Alex >>>> >>>>P.S. >>>> >>>>Give this position to Deep Junior 8 and let it run a long time if you have a >>>>dual, or Junior 8 if you have a very fast single...it might find Rxc3!!...? >>> >>>fxe6 is not best. e7 and this draws. I've looked over this several times. >> >>In the above line, when do you suggest White play e7? It cannot be played as an >>alternative to fxe6, since that is Black's move. > >Rxc3 fxe6 Ra3 e7 Let's prolong the line (Rxc3 fxe6 Ra3 e7) 3... Re8 4. bxa3 Qb6+ and White can resign because it loses in all lines. Regards, Igor Gorelikov
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