Author: Robin Smith
Date: 11:19:28 09/30/03
Go up one level in this thread
On September 30, 2003 at 08:12:27, Igor Gorelikov wrote: >On September 29, 2003 at 18:09:39, Slater Wold wrote: > >>On September 29, 2003 at 10:58:35, Robin Smith wrote: >> >>>On September 29, 2003 at 10:52:38, Slater Wold wrote: >>> >>>>On September 29, 2003 at 10:36:10, Alexander Yates wrote: >>>> >>>>>In Reply to: Re: Garry Kasparov - My Great Predecessors posted by Mark Young on >>>>>September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On September 28, 2003 at 09:34:43, Mark Young wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On September 28, 2003 at 04:38:08, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On September 28, 2003 at 00:15:02, Mark Young wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>H. Pillsbury - Em. Lasker >>>>>>>>After whites 17 move of f5 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>[D]2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Here GM Kasparov gives 17..Rxc3 a (!!) mark. With the comment that the move >>>>>>>>Rxc3!! is beyond the powers of even a strong computer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Is Rxc3 really beyond the powers of a strong computer? Or is the move Rxc3 not >>>>>>>>worthy of a (!!) because it leads only to a draw. This is what the computers see >>>>>>>>after blacks 17..Rxc3. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do not think that 17...Rxc3 will be played by >>>>>>> any computer program. And by the way: I have still >>>>>>> not found a win for Black in the following line: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [Event "40'/40+40'/40+40'"] >>>>>>> [Site "MyTown"] >>>>>>> [Date "????.??.??"] >>>>>>> [Round "?"] >>>>>>> [White "Neue Partie"] >>>>>>> [Black "?"] >>>>>>> [Result "1/2-1/2"] >>>>>>> [SetUp "1"] >>>>>>> [FEN "2r2rk1/pp3pp1/4bb1p/q2p1P1Q/3P4/2N5/PP4PP/1K1R1B1R b - - 0 1"] >>>>>>> [PlyCount "23"] >>>>>>> [TimeControl "40/2400:40/2400:2400"] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >>>>>>> 6. Ke1 Qc3+ 7. Ke2 Qc2+ 8. Rd2 Qe4+ 9. Kd1 Qb1+ 10. Ke2 Qe4+ >>>>>>> 11. Kd1 Qb1+ 12. Ke2 Qe4+ 1/2-1/2 >>>>>> >>>>>>I came to the same conclusion. I don't think there is a win after Rxc3 with best >>>>>>defense. This is why computer will not play the move. Computers see Bd7 holding >>>>>>a much better advantage. And it seems the computers are correct. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The computers are not correct. They can't see deep enough to find Rxc3!! >>>>>followed by Ra3! >>>>> >>>>>This game I'm sure has been well analyzed by many Grandmasters, not just >>>>>Kasparov, who BTW is the highest rated player of all time! >>>>> >>>>>There are many combinations still too difficult for computers, and that has been >>>>>demonstrated by various tests. Nolot comes to mind...#6 I believe. Regardless, >>>>>we know some combinations are too deep or abstruse for the computer at present >>>>>time. >>>>> >>>>>Even if a computer does find the move, it will take a very long time and it may >>>>>not be for the correct reasons. >>>>> >>>>>1... Rxc3 2. fxe6 Ra3 3. bxa3 Qb6+ 4. Kc2 Rc8+ 5. Kd2 Qxd4+ >>>>>6. Ke1 Qe3+ 7. Be2 fxe6 8. Qh3! Bc3+! 9. Kf1 Rf8+ 10. Bf3 Qe4! -+ >>>>> >>>>>There are other variations of course and the B retreat has merit so the machines >>>>>most likely will stay with Bd7, instead of moving on to the more complex Rxc3!! >>>>> >>>>>Just for the record, Lasker made this sacrifice famous, and Rxc3 is now regarded >>>>>as thematic. >>>>> >>>>>Alex >>>>> >>>>>P.S. >>>>> >>>>>Give this position to Deep Junior 8 and let it run a long time if you have a >>>>>dual, or Junior 8 if you have a very fast single...it might find Rxc3!!...? >>>> >>>>fxe6 is not best. e7 and this draws. I've looked over this several times. >>> >>>In the above line, when do you suggest White play e7? It cannot be played as an >>>alternative to fxe6, since that is Black's move. >> >>Rxc3 fxe6 Ra3 e7 > >Let's prolong the line (Rxc3 fxe6 Ra3 e7) 3... Re8 4. bxa3 Qb6+ and White can >resign because it loses in all lines. > >Regards, >Igor Gorelikov Yes! Rxc3 fxe6 Ra3 e7 loses for White, not a draw at all.
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