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Subject: Re: a question to Tord about detecting threats in null move

Author: Dave Gomboc

Date: 22:21:45 10/04/03

Go up one level in this thread


On October 03, 2003 at 23:08:25, Christophe Theron wrote:

>On October 03, 2003 at 18:21:33, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On October 03, 2003 at 17:34:56, Christophe Theron wrote:
>>
>>>On October 03, 2003 at 15:36:22, Mridul Muralidharan wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>You misinterpreted me.
>>>>
>>>>On October 03, 2003 at 14:51:24, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On October 03, 2003 at 13:38:54, Mridul Muralidharan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I was a bit taken aback by these declarations :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On October 03, 2003 at 12:47:23, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>>>>I prefer even not to care about using hash tables for pruning because my
>>>>>>>experience told me that I cannot get significant gain there easily
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Hash table not giving you pruning ? I suspect a bug in your hashkey -
>>>>>>nothingelse.
>>>>>>Or maybe it is the easily that is operative word ?
>>>>>>I think there are a lot of open source programs that you can refer to and
>>>>>>correct your bugs with - crafty , GNUChess , etc , etc.
>>>>>>Might help to get this right.
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not like to copy from other sources.
>>>>>I found that instability helped me to do my program significantly better.
>>>>>
>>>>>If I delete it in order to be able to copy from other programs then I may need
>>>>>to start by doing it significantly weaker.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I did not mean - "copy" here.
>>>>Rome was not built in a day. What I meant is :
>>>>Look at their implementation - check yours. Find any obvious bugs.
>>>>I seriously suspect that there are - since hashtables not only help in pruning ,
>>>>but massively help in move ordering.
>>>>If you can afford to make these statements - then your impl is horribly full of
>>>>bugs.
>>>>
>>>>As far as "instability helping" - I'm really not sure what you mean by this. As
>>>>far as I know - everyone , including me , tries to reduce instability so that
>>>>search is more stable requiring minimal search tree.
>>>>Wild extensions , unstable pruning , etc may help you in solving test suites
>>>>better and faster - but in real world games , it will suck badly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>(I have a lot
>>>>>>>of stuff that means that pruning or extension is not defined only by the
>>>>>>>position).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Where ever possible , I try to make the search behaviour as relevent to the
>>>>>>current position as possible and not rely on past search.
>>>>>>Why do you want to do the opposite ?
>>>>>
>>>>>because the opposite gives me some advantages.
>>>>
>>>>test , test , test - dont assume.
>>>>like my collegue says : When you AssUMe , you make an Ass of U and Me ;)
>>>>
>>>>>Movei has its chances against every program inspite of having bad order of moves
>>>>>and bad extensions and bad pruning.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>acceptance is the first step to improvement !
>>>>
>>>>>I believe that I can get above Crafty level if I improve order of move
>>>>>extensions,pruning and evaluation.
>>>>>
>>>>>Movei already has its chances against Crafty but today crafty is significantly
>>>>>better.
>>>>>
>>>>>There is a lot to improve and the main problem is programming.
>>>>>
>>>>>Uri
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>AFAIK movei is not smp - so no point in saying search here :)
>>>>SO , other than move ordering , eval and pruning : what else is left ? interface
>>>>code ? ;)
>>>>anyone can get to crafty level or higher - IF you are willing to put in the
>>>>effort and scientifically research.
>>>>All the best - wishing to see a better Movei and a more scientific Uri :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>You are talking without knowing Uri, obviously.
>>>
>>>You are also talking about commputer chess without really knowing, I fear.
>>>
>>>Uri has been talking with us about chess programs for a long time without
>>>writing one. So at the begining he came with ideas that were not really
>>>relevant, or not exactly to the point.
>>>
>>>What I like about Uri is that at some point instead of keeping talking about the
>>>subject he has started to write his own chess program. I also know that he has a
>>>very scientific, objective approach in what he does.
>>>
>>>So if I was you I would not give Uri beginners's advices like "test, test -
>>>don't assume". Because as far as I know that's exactly what he is doing.
>>>
>>>I also believe that Uri is right in not trying to get too much inspiration from
>>>other chess programs.
>>>
>>>I think you should refrain from giving lame advices to Uri and tell us instead
>>>about your achievements as a chess programmer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Christophe
>>
>>Thanks for the support.
>>I believe that I did not implement most of the ideas that I had before writing a
>>chess program.
>>
>>There are things that I did not try not because I believe that they are not
>>productive but because they are not simple to implement and I prefer to think
>>about implementing more simple things first.
>>
>>About testing I can say that in a lot of cases I am not sure if the program is
>>better after a change that I accept but at least I am sure that it is not
>>significantly worse.
>>
>>Uri
>
>
>
>I'm confident Movei will reach a very good level. In any case I give you credits
>for starting your work on a real chess program. The experience you gain from
>this immediately puts you above those who have never tried but keep talking, or
>in some cases allow themselves to criticize.
>
>
>
>    Christophe

Heh, I guess you leapfrogged me, Uri. ;-)

Dave



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