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Subject: Re: Experiment #6 - 2nd match finished !

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 05:20:00 10/14/03

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On October 14, 2003 at 07:58:17, martin fierz wrote:

>On October 14, 2003 at 07:00:39, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On October 14, 2003 at 06:46:39, martin fierz wrote:
>>
>>>On October 14, 2003 at 06:19:17, Gerhard Sonnabend wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi !
>>>>
>>>>The second match is closed.
>>>>(I only post the short tables here)
>>>>
>>>>Could any chessprogram profit from longer/shorter levels ?
>>>>
>>>>At the moment i carry out an experiment to find out if there are chessengines
>>>>which profit from shorter or longer (time)levels more than other engines.
>>>>Played on a P4-1600 / 64MB HTs / 4-TBs / ponder=off
>>>>with the "Noomen" (A-H) (=160 games every match) under the ChessBase-Fritz7-GUI.
>>>>
>>>>Completed are:
>>>>Shredder 7.04 vs Junior 8.0.0.2
>>>>                Total    (+  1/2 -)
>>>>  5min/game   98.5-61.5  (87-23-50)
>>>> 10min/game   94.0-66.0  (76-36-48)
>>>> 30min/game   92.5-67.5  (70-45-45)
>>>>120min/game   89.5-70.5  (65-49-46)
>>>>
>>>>and:
>>>>
>>>>Shredder 7.0(CB) vs Fritz 8.0.0.5
>>>>                Total    (+  1/2 -)
>>>>  5min/game   63.0-97.0  (40-46-74)
>>>> 10min/game   68.0-92.0  (49-38-73)
>>>> 30min/game   72.5-87.5  (47-51-62)
>>>>120min/game   68.5-91.5  (43-51-66)
>>>>
>>>>The current matches is (after 120 games per Level):
>>>>Chess Tiger 15.0(CB) "Normal" vs Beta-WIN-Rebel 12 (style=Test12a)
>>>>                Total    (+  1/2 -)
>>>>  5min/game   83.0-37.0  (68-30-22)
>>>> 10min/game   80.0-40.0  (63-34-23)
>>>> 30min/game   68.5-51.5  (48-41-31)
>>>>120min/game   65.5-54.5  (41-49-30)
>>>>(Played on a Cel. 1.8GHz / 128MB HTs / ...the rest look above)
>>>>
>>>>The details and the games can be found on:
>>>>www.pcschach.de
>>>>
>>>>Best G.S.
>>>
>>>nice tests! shredder vs junior and CT15 vs rebel 12 beta at least show trends of
>>>favoring one program at short and another program at long time control.
>>
>>It does not prove it.
>>It also may show rend of being closer to 50% at longer time control.
>
>i never said it was a proof :-)
>it's a trend, that's all i said. your hypothesis is certainly another one that
>waits to be tested!
>
>>>this seems quite natural to me. if one program has better move ordering than
>>>another it will do better at longer time controls, since better MO is an
>>>exponential gain. i have seen this behavior in my checkers program in matches
>>>against another program - mine does better at longer time controls. and, since i
>>>know the other programmer well, i also know that i spend a lot more time on move
>>>ordering. so i'm not really surprised about my checkers result. i'm more
>>>surprised that some people don't want to believe that this effect exists :-)
>>>
>>>cheers
>>>  martin
>>
>>I agree that if one program is better on move ordering it is going to be better
>>at longer time control but the question is practical and not theoretical.
>>
>>If the better program in move ordering is also better in other things then the
>>inferior program is not going to be tested because for some reason only top
>>programs are tested and if the top programs earn the same from time we are going
>>to find nothing.
>
>we would find nothing if move ordering (or anything else that influences the
>branching factor, like e.g. pruning) were exactly the same for all top programs.
>now that is something i would think is *very* unlikely!
>
>cheers
>  martin

It is not exactly the same but if the difference is small we can find nothing
because the statistical error is bigger.

Uri



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