Author: Uri Blass
Date: 22:40:39 10/15/03
Go up one level in this thread
On October 15, 2003 at 23:26:41, Christophe Theron wrote: >On October 14, 2003 at 18:47:31, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On October 14, 2003 at 17:58:04, Christophe Theron wrote: >> >>>On October 14, 2003 at 03:54:28, Uri Blass wrote: >>> >>>>On October 14, 2003 at 03:49:38, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 15:44:30, Joachim Rang wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 14:19:14, Christophe Theron wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On October 13, 2003 at 13:09:03, Charles Roberson wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You make the statement that Diep is a positional engine and you chose it based >>>>>>>>on that. So, why did you run G/5 matches? At G/5 tactics and search depth >>>>>>>>is crucial. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I would like to bring to your attention that tactics and search depth are >>>>>>>crucial at any time controls in chess. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Showing dimishing returns from increased search depth is so difficult that in >>>>>>>practice there is little difference between blitz and long time controls. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If engine A gets a beating at blitz, expect it to get the same beating if you >>>>>>>repeat the match with long time controls. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Christophe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Hi Chrisotphe, >>>>>> >>>>>>this interesting statement was many times repeated from you, but in the meantime >>>>>>a lot of tests have shown, that there are certain programs (not all) which give >>>>>>different results at short and long games. Hiarcs i.E. is better at short >>>>>>timecontrols, for Rebel the contrary is true. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I do not think that your examples are true. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I think one could easily tune an engine to short or long time controls (not that >>>>>>this is necessarily a good idea, but it is possible and therefore you can not a >>>>>>priori know if y program plays wiht equal relative strenght at all time >>>>>>controls). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>It is possible, if you try hard enough, to build a very unbalanced chess >>>>>program. >>>>> >>>>>But it is relatively easy to get rid of this problem. So I don't see why someone >>>>>would design on purpose a program that would be weak at blitz and strong at long >>>>>time controls. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Christophe >>>> >>>>If somebody has a bad data structure so he cannot calculate the functions that >>>>he needs fast then he may prefer instead of improving the data structure to >>>>improve the branching factor so the program may earn more from time relative to >>>>the opponents. >>>> >>>>Uri >>> >>> >>> >>>You do not need to be slow to have a state of the art branching factor. >>> >>>Take a very slow program (slow because it spends a lot of time ordering the >>>moves) and add on top of that two plies of very fast search (not perfectly >>>ordered, but not too bad either). >>> >>>You get a very fast searcher with an excellent branching factor (the last two >>>plies might not very good in branching factor but you won't notice). >>> >>>Being fast is not an excuse for having a bad branching factor. >>> >>>Being slow won't give you any advantage in branching factor. >>> >>> >>> >>> Christophe >> >>I do not say that you need to be slow in order to have state of the art >>branching factor but being fast is also a function of the data structure that >>you choose. >> >>programmers have limited time and if they choose to improve order of moves >>instead of improving the data structure then they may achieve being 200% faster >>at slow time control and 50% faster at blitz instead of being 100% faster in >>both cases. >> >>Uri > > > >I have repeated many times that it is possible to build an unbalanced chess >program. > >But competitive chess programs are not unbalanced, because it is not excessively >hard to build a balanced chess program. > >In the example you mention, the program would not be competitive because it >would be anyway also slower at long time controls than programs based on a >reasonably fast data structure. Not to mention the disaster at blitz. > > > > Christophe Unless the programmer found a way to have better branching factor relative to the commercial programs and in that case it may be even better at long time control and weaker at blitz. Uri
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