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Subject: Re: to the author of SEE engine

Author: Ross Boyd

Date: 15:37:50 10/16/03

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On October 16, 2003 at 11:01:56, Tord Romstad wrote:

>On October 16, 2003 at 10:29:25, Ross Boyd wrote:
>
>>Hi Tord,
>>After adding EGTB support to TRACE her rating improvement was barely measurable.
>>I think it was 6 elo after at least 200 games.
>>And she is definitely an engine that lacks endgame knowledge. :-)
>
>I added tablebase support in Gothmog last week, but haven't tested the
>improvement yet.

Great!  I prefer to keep EGTB support even if the improvement is negligible for
TRACE. I hope YMMV. :-)

>
>>Often I see TRACE swindle a draw in R+PvR endgames and sometimes she swindles a
>>RvB endgame for a win.
>
>In games against Phalanx (my favorite sparring partner), Gothmog often
>gives away a half point in advantageous rook endings by allowing Phalanx
>to simplify to a Philidor-type position.  Phalanx apparently knows that
>these positions are drawn, but Gothmog still thinks it has good winning
>chances.  I think this happens often enough that adding tablebase support
>should give a small, but measurable improvement.

These are the type of where the EGTBs do payoff.

>
>Of course, it would be much better to actually implement knowledge about
>the third-rank defence in my evaluation function.  I will probably do
>so some time in the future.
>

I agree its best to have the knowledge built in so that the knowledge can be
applied before its too late.

>>But accessing the egtbs is very slow so frequently she loses because her
>>NPS is severely hampered..
>
>Huh?  I haven't noticed any slowdown at all.  When do you probe?  I probe
>in all positions where the last move was a capture, and the remaining depth
>is at least 5 plies.

I probe only after captures in all interior nodes... maybe that's my mistake. I
might try limiting this to 5 plies from the frontier as you do.

>
>Perhaps I simply have a much faster hard disk than you, or perhaps my NPS
>is so slow to begin with that the disk access doesn't matter much.

It halves my nps usually... or worse. And my HD is not the latest and
greatest...


>
>>Uri is right when he says the game is usually over before the egtbs can come to
>>the rescue.
>
>Usually, but not always.
>
>>So, the main benefit for TRACE has been knowing well in advance that she will be
>>checkmated in 47 moves with best play... :-)
>
>Yes, that is the most noticable "improvement", here too.  :-)
>
>Tord

BTW, I'm a fan of Gothmog. My preference is for knowledge-based engines like
yours that cut through the tree with lots of smarts. Its beaten up TRACE on many
occasions.  She's slow AND stoopid, unfortunately.  :-)

Best wishes,

Ross





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