Author: blass uri
Date: 06:20:28 11/09/98
Go up one level in this thread
On November 09, 1998 at 09:05:04, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On November 09, 1998 at 00:15:39, blass uri wrote: > >> >>On November 08, 1998 at 21:23:31, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On November 08, 1998 at 17:08:12, Amir Ban wrote: >>> >>>>On November 07, 1998 at 17:04:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>I don't believe so, no. Based on 10+ years of experience in watching older >>>>>and slower versions of deep thought absolutely shred micro programs, and >>>>>factoring in the 100-fold improvement (at least) in the speed of DB over >>>>>the older Deep Thought, I'd think that there might not be a better commercial >>>>>program for even longer if my suspicion that doubling in speed every 18 months >>>>>turns out to be true.. I don't see how it can continue... and without that >>>>>performance boost, micros vs db would be totally hopeless... >>>> >>>>Bob, >>>> >>>>Those 10+ years ended in 1993 or so, the last time that Deep Thought played and >>>>won against a micro. As you well know, post-1993 versions of Deep Blue played >>>>very few games against micros and won none of them. >>> >>> >>>Don't know about you, but in 1994, I was in Cape May New Jersay, and watched >>>the same old deep thought hardware blow everyone off the board. Micros >>>included... >>> >>>and I certainly don't understand your last phrase "played very few and won none" >>>so I assume you can give some data. I would invert that a bit... it played >>>very few but won *all*... the only exception was the game vs Fritz in Hong >>>Kong... >>> >>>> >>>>In 1993 the top micros were rated about 2300 (according to SSDF, the top four >>>>are rated 2322, 2302, 2292, 2288), so dominating them doesn't prove superiority >>>>over today's top programs. What's more, if yout play over old DT/DB games, it >>>>seems to get into serious trouble in every other game it plays, but gets away >>>>with it. There was a game it played as white against Zarkov in ACM (1992, I >>>>think), which it made every attempt to lose, but Zarkov apparently didn't want >>>>to win. Playing over this game, you realize it is lost not only against the top >>>>programs of today, but even against the middle of the pack. I also wonder how >>>>many of today's top programs would fail to exploit DB-Prototype's bad opening >>>>against Star Socrates. >>> >>>Fine... DT didn't play great. But it blew everyone out tactically. But what >>>does that have to do with "deep blue"? based on hardware two generations newer >>>than the 1992 Deep Thought that was still unbeatable? And let me remind you >>>once again... final game of kasparov vs deep blue... two commercial programs >>>were given that position playing white, against an IM, and both lost badly... >> >>I do not think that the opening that kasparov played was the problem but the >>fact that kasparov was not ready to play it. >>I am not sure if deep blue can win against the same IM or against top program >>with white. >> >>Uri > >I wouldn't argue at all although after Nxe6 (the position where the games with >the IM started) black has problems... but so does white as he is a piece down >and has to prove Ne6 is sound... > >But that really isn't the point in this game discussion. The point that always >comes up is "Kasparov blew the order of two consecutive moves and allowed Nxe6 >which resulted in an 'easy win' for white." I still say that this is *not* an >easy win, and used the commercial vs IM games someone posted on r.g.c.c early >this year as evidence that white doesn't have an easy 1-0 time of it... > >The point was that game 6 wasn't over after Nxe6 IMHO. The game stillhas to >be won... and most (if not all) programs would still not have won playing >Kasparov or even against a strong IM... I think that most program will lose with white even if they play against themselves. I did an experiment with Genius3 and after Nxe6 fxe6 black won (I gave white 30 minutes per move and black 3 minutes per move). The mistake of kasparov was that he was not ready to the sacrifice and I think that he played in this game after he was surprised even worse than a prepared IM. Uri
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