Author: Ernst Walet
Date: 23:21:31 10/18/03
Go up one level in this thread
On October 18, 2003 at 20:01:31, Uri Blass wrote: >On October 18, 2003 at 19:24:36, Ed Schröder wrote: > >>On October 18, 2003 at 19:15:36, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On October 18, 2003 at 18:49:15, Ed Schröder wrote: >>> >>>>On October 18, 2003 at 17:35:39, Thorsten Czub wrote: >>>> >>>>>On October 18, 2003 at 15:17:21, Jeroen Noomen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>1.Nc3 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 >>>>>> >>>>>>HERE the King was out of book! >>>>> >>>>>why is the king chosing a line, where it is out of book itself meanwhile the >>>>>opponent is still in the opening book ? >>>>> >>>>>If you would be the operator, or the programmer, wouldn't you try out >>>>>(if you choose to play 1.Nc3) >>>>>how the commercial version of your opponnent PLAYS when you play 1.Nc3 ? >>>>>this would be the first thing i would try on the hotel room. >>>>> >>>>>And - surprise surprise: rebel is still in book and would play... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>3.d4 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.e3 O-O 6.Be2 c5 7.dxc5 Nbd7 >>>>> >>>>>>AND here Rebel was on its own. >>>>> >>>>>yes. O-O was expected. >>>>> >>>>>but surprise surprise, Nb5 comes. which forces the next moves. >>>>> >>>>>>8.Nb5 a6 9.Nc7 Ra7 10.Nxd5 Nxd5 11.Qxd5 Bxb2 >>>>> >>>>>this is a really nice situation. black has no chance to do anything. >>>>>it can only RE-ACT. >>>>> >>>>>thats exactly how i would like to see it happen as white. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>12.O-O!? >>>>> >>>>>>Surprise, surprise! >>>>> >>>>>good programs see O-O. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Bxa1 13.Rxa1 Nf6? >>>>> >>>>>>THIS is wrong!! >>>>> >>>>>yes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> After 13 ... Qa5! 14.Bh6 Qxc5 15.Qxc5 Nxc5 16.Bxf8 Kxf8 >>>>>>black's position is OK. White is more active, but black has the better >>>>>>pawn position. Equal I would say. >>>>>> >>>>>>14.Qe5 Be6 15.Bh6 Re8 16.Rd1 Qb8 17.Rd6!! >>>>>> >>>>>>BRILLIANT and probably already decisive! A typical King stroke. >>>>>> >>>>>>b5 18.Nd2! Bf5 19.g4 Rd7 20.gxf5 Rxd6 >>>>>>21.cxd6 Qxd6 22.Qxd6 exd6 23.c4 bxc4 24.Bxc4 d5 25.Bb3 Ne4 26.Nf3 Nc3 >>>>>>27.Nd4 a5 28.a4 Rb8 29.Nc6 Rb6 30.Ne7+ Kh8 31.Bxd5 gxf5 32.Bc6 f4 >>>>>>33.Bxf4 Ne2+ 34.Kg2 Nxf4+ 35.exf4 Rb8 36.Bb5 Ra8 37.Kf3 Kg7 38.Nc6 f6 >>>>>>39.Ke4 Kf7 40.Kd4 Ke6 41.Bd3 Kd6 42.h3 h6 43.Be2 Re8 44.Bb5 Ra8 45.Ke4 Ke6 >>>>>>46.Be2 f5+ 47.Kd4 Kf6 48.Bf3 Rc8 49.h4 Rc7 50.h5 Rd7+ 51.Kc3 Rc7 52.Kc4 Rb7 >>>>>>53.Nxa5 Rb2 54.Nc6 Rxf2 55.Ne5 Ra2 56.Bc6 Rf2 57.Nd3 Ra2 1-0 >>>>>> >>>>>>>Why is Rebel playing the same line my commercial rebel plays ? >>>>>> >>>>>>Hm, you foresaw the line 1.Nc3 Nf6 2.Nf3 coming?! >>>>> >>>>>2.Nf6 is in rebel12 commercial-book. >>>>>it's very easy to find out. >>>>>buy it. >>>>>input Nc3 and look how commercial rebel would have played ! >>>>>not much intelligence needed to find out. >>>> >>>>>if you would play against a program 1.Nc3, wouldn't you try it out >>>>>before you play a game in a tournament what this program plays IF you do ?? >>>> >>>>You are just angry Rebel lost, that's okay :) it's not okay to blame it on >>>>Jeroen. Blame Rebel for 13..Nf6? >>>> >>>>Ed >>> >>>I do not think that this subject is anout feeling. >>> >>>The point is that it is a mistake to use the commercial book because it means >>>that you may be victim for traps. >>> >>>The question if chessmaster won the game because of trap or not is not >>>important. >>> >>>The important thing to learn is to change the book not to allow traps. >>> >>>You can expect every legal move as first move in preperation so good book >>>preperation may be to change every reply to first move that is not normal. >>> >>>For example you may even have Nc3 a6 in the book only to take the opponent out >>>of prepared lines but I guess that there is a better move that is not in Rebel's >>>commercial book. >>> >>>1.Nc3 is easier for preperation than 1.e4 because after 1.e4 the engine may >>>play many different lines so preperation even against the book is harder >>>so the important thing for the people who write the book is to concentrate on >>>rare lines to change the reply in them. >> >> >>But Jeroen (since years) isn't playing with the commercial book on tournaments. >>The book for tournaments is secret. Is it perfect yet? By no means, probably >>never. >> >>My best, >> >>Ed > >not good enough because it seems that in the relevant line the book was >identical to the commercial book(the program chose the same moves). > >It is possible to prevent it at least for rare lines. > >Preventing it for not rare line is less important because in common lines >there are many alternatives that the program may play so the probability to get >them in preperation is small unless you prepare hundreds of games against Rebel >before the tournament. > >Uri I really don't understand all the fuss around rebel's book. I was there, watched the game, analysed it on my notebook, and agree that 13...Nf6 lost the game. Stuff for Ed to take a look at if and when he is in the mood for it. It is a very nice tournament, everbody is in good spirits. In half an hour I'll be of for the second day. Kind regards, Ernst. ps. Jeroen is playing on a very nice brand new notebook with an Athlon XP2800 and 512MB ram. :)
This page took 0 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.