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Subject: Re: When will a deep Blue equivalent Be commercially Available?

Author: Ed Schröder

Date: 10:46:58 11/09/98

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>I *know* I don't write that confusing.  What I said was this:  DT had lots
>of *known* design weaknesses in the chess-specific hardware, from the evaluation
>to the search itself, and yet it rolled over every program around, from the
>micros right on up to the supercomputers, *in spite of* those substantial
>weaknesses.  The hardware was redesigned at least twice in a major way, from
>the late "deep thought" hardware to Deep Blue I, to the chip used in the last
>match (I'll refer to it as DB II).

>I brought this up because *you* were mixing micros of today with deep thought
>of 7-8 years ago.  From experience, Cray Blitz of today still outplays any
>micro I know of,

Can you post the CB games then?

Or at least give some results?


>yet I know exactly how it did against Deep Thought and
>"deep blue prototype".

>But more importantly, I also know just how much better the current Deep Blue II
>is when compared to those older versions of their hardware.  And their old
>hardware was so overwhelming...  If you actually think a micro of today could
>beat Deep Thought, there's not much I can say to change your mind.  And that's
>ok.  But the difference between you and I is that *I* have sat across the table
>from them on several occasions and seen what they can do.  And I have sat across
>the table from micro-based programs many times to know how *they* played as
>well.  And the gap between the two looks somewhat like the Grand Canyon.  And
>then there is deep blue, which is far stronger (faster, smarter, etc.) than the
>program I had to play, and *no* I don't think it is weaker today than in 1994
>when they forfeited round 1 at the ACM event and *still* won the event.

>My summary:  I don't think a micro of today could beat the deep thought of the
>early 1990's except for the random statisitical oddity.  A match?  *zero*
>chance.  A single game? A vanishingly small chance, but a chance (Fritz proved
>this at Hong Kong of course).


>>Very revealing. I was wondering when this secret basement match would be
>>mentioned again. In a sense it's appropriate that DB's reputation would be based
>>on such rumours. I remember it was discussed "quite a bit" by Hsu and Campbell:
>>they were trying to remember who were the opponents, what was the hardware :)


>There wasn't any doubt about the opponents... Rebel and Genius.  There was
>some discussion about the "version".  And even the actual CPU speed.  But the
>hardware wasn't "cheesy" while they were slowed down to 1/500th of their normal
>speed.  So there's not much room for complaint there, IMHO...

I remember the following: they used Rebel7 and Genius 3 or 4. Pc a P90. Time
control 30 seconds average. No games. Only the 10-0.


>I trust their results and statements. And will always do so until I see them
>say something that I *know* to be false...  I doubt that will happen however...


>Two years ago I had a neighbor that owned a classic Ferrari 308.  I *knew* it
>would blow the doors off of my truck without ever having to go to the race track
>with him to run the 1/4 mile...  There are some things that you can "know" even
>without a competition...

Not quite so. Until they play I would say. The last time they played turned out
a disaster for them. Also then they had this enormous speed advantage (your
Ferrari 308 so to say).

I remember our RGCC discussion that (I believe it was the Fritz game) we
caught the program on a horrible horizon effect of just 10 plies. Remember?

- Ed -



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