Author: Ed Schröder
Date: 14:37:47 11/04/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 04, 2003 at 16:39:38, Eelco de Groot wrote:
>Hello Ed, in case you are wandering by here in this forum, I had a "little"
>question about Rebel's parameters? I was looking at the Ruffian - Rebel game
>again and was wondering why actually Rebel wanted to play the move 11...Bf5.
Hard to say, I feel not qualified enough to judge between 11..Bf5 and castling
later and direct castling. What I can say Rebel played the tournament with
experimental settings which weren't exactly the best.
There will be an engine update soon (together with some bug-fixes) that after
some times comes up with Jeroen's wished move but looking at the minor
differences in score it is not very convincing :)
My best,
Ed
=========================
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2003.11.04"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
1.Nf3 Nc6 2.e4 e5 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.Bd5
Nxd5 9.exd5 Nb4 10.d4 e4 11.Rxe4
r1bqk2r/2p1bppp/p2p4/1p1P4/1n1PR3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ2K1 b kq -
00:00:00 1.00 -0.57 11..O-O
00:00:00 1.04 -0.00 11..Nxd5
00:00:00 2.00 -0.13 11..Nxd5 12.Qe2
00:00:00 2.02 -0.13 11..Bf5
00:00:00 2.02 0.16 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5
00:00:00 3.00 0.16 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5
00:00:00 4.00 0.00 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Ng5
00:00:00 4.01 0.06 11..Nxd5 12.Ng5 O-O 13.Qh5
00:00:00 5.00 0.20 11..Nxd5 12.Nc3 Nxc3 13.bxc3 Bf5 14.Re1
00:00:00 5.01 0.20 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.c4 bxc4 14.Qa4
00:00:00 6.00 0.20 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.c4 bxc4 14.Qa4 Qd7
00:00:00 7.00 0.20 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.c4 bxc4 14.Qa4 Qd7 15.Qxc4
00:00:00 7.01 0.21 11..Nxd5 12.Ng5 Bf5 13.Re1 c6 14.Qf3 Qa5
00:00:01 8.00 0.16 11..Nxd5 12.Ng5 Nf6 13.Re1 h6 14.Qf3 d5 15.Nh3
00:00:01 8.01 0.20 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.c4 bxc4 14.Qa4 Qd7 15.Qxc4
00:00:01 9.00 0.32 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Qe1 c5 14.Bg5 Be6 15.Bxe7
Nxe7
00:00:02 10.00 0.35 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Qe1 O-O 14.Nc3 Nxc3
15.Qxc3 Bf6 16.Bf4 c5
00:00:04 11.00 0.37 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Nc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 O-O
15.d5 Bf6
00:00:07 12.00 0.36 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Bd2 Bg4 14.Qe1 O-O 15.Nc3
Nxc3 16.Rxe7 Be6
00:00:15 13.00 0.35 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Bd2 O-O 14.Nc3 Be6 15.a4
c5 16.axb5 Nxc3 17.Bxc3 axb5 18.Rxa8 Qxa8 19.Qd3
00:00:36 14.00 0.32 11..Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Bg5 f6 14.Bd2 O-O 15.Re1
Qd7 16.Nc3 Nxc3 17.Bxc3 d5 18.Ba5
00:01:38 14.01 0.32 11..Nxd5 12.Bg5 O-O 13.Bxe7 Nxe7 14.Re1 Nd5
15.Qd3 Bb7 16.Nbd2 f5
00:01:48 14.07 0.34 11..O-O 12.Nc3 Bb7 13.Re1 Nxd5 14.Nxd5 Bxd5
15.Bf4 Bf6 16.Qd3 Bxf3 17.gxf3 Bg5
00:02:19 15.00 0.39 11..O-O 12.Nc3 Bb7 13.Re1 Nxd5 14.Nxd5 Bxd5
15.Qd3 f5 16.Bf4
00:04:06 16.00 0.41 11..O-O 12.Nc3 Bb7 13.Re1 Nxd5 14.Nxd5 Bxd5
15.Qd3 Bf6 16.a4 Re8 17.Rxe8
============
>[D]r1bqk2r/2p1bppp/p2p4/1p1P4/1n1PR3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ2K1 b kq - 0 1
>
>Not that 11...Bf5 is an obviously bad move but as Jeroen Noomen pointed out
>11...0-0 would have been better. Now my reasoning was that, if I increased the
>value for the Bishop pair, maybe I'd see that the score for 11...Bf5 would go
>down, since White can exchange Bishops after 11...Bf5 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Bg5 O-O.
>
>Black can choose to play 13...f6 instead but that does not seem a good move
>either. If 13...f6 is the move Rebel expects to play, and that is the reason why
>increasing [Bishop Pair] does not work, this does not seem good either since
>this move weakens the pawn structure much and with short castling still an
>option it seems that it is also bad because of King Safety? Or it should be?
>Black has already compromised the pawn structure on the Queen side and with f6
>so early in the game would weaken its pawns also on the King side. It just seems
>almost fatal to do this on both sides especially early in the game, only to gain
>a tempo or two (White's R back to e2 and B to d2). Also mobility of its own
>Bishop on e7 is decreased by playing f6.
>
>I experimented with different values for the Bishop pair but almost the only
>effect I saw seemed to be that 13.Bd2 was chosen more than 13.Bg5, the opposite
>of what I'd expect. The scores did not change noticeably, even with maximum
>value of 500. So I was wondering if something could be broken here, almost as if
>a plus changed into a minus or something?
>
>Most Rebel versions I tried only want to play Bf5, except Thorsten's settings
>which I don't know and also one Betazoid version where I put in [Bishop Mobility
>= 60]. Another possibility I thought of that it could have something to do with
>that new parameter, that is if really something might be broken?
>
>These were the different results:
>
>[Event "23rd DOCC"]
>[Site "Leiden NED"]
>[Date "25/10/2003"]
>[Round "07"]
>[White "Ruffian"]
>[Black "Rebel"]
>[Result "1-0"]
>[Opening "C88 Ruy Lopez: Closed"]
>
>1. Nf3 Nc6 2. e4 e5 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. Bd5
>Nxd5 9. exd5
>Nb4 10. d4 e4 11. Rxe4 Bf5 12. Re2 Nxd5 13. Bg5 O-O 14. Bxe7 Nxe7 15. Nc3 b4 16.
>Ne4 Nd5
>17. a3 Bg4 18. Re1 Re8 19. Qd3 Bf5 20. Nfd2 Nb6 21. Qf3 Bg6 22. axb4 d5 23. Nc5
>Rxe1+
>24. Rxe1 Bxc2 25. Qe2 Qd6 26. Nxa6 f6 27. b5 Bf5 28. Nf1 Bd7 29. Ne3 Re8 30. Qc2
>Nc4 31. b3
>Nxe3 32. Rxe3 Ra8 33. g3 Ra7 34. Qe2 f5 35. Kg2 h6 36. Nc5 f4 37. Re7 Bxb5 38.
>Qe6+ Qxe6
>39. Nxe6 Kh8 40. Rxc7 Ra3 41. Nxf4 Rxb3 42. Nxd5 Rd3 43. Nc3 Bd7 44. Rxd7 Rxc3
>45. h4
>Kg8 46. f3 Rc2+ 47. Kh3 h5 48. g4 Kh7 49. gxh5 Kh6 50. Kg4 Rg2+ 51. Kf5 Kxh5 52.
>d5 Rd2
>53. Rd8 Kxh4 54. d6 1-0
>
>
>After 11.Rxe4, diagram see above
>
>r1bqk2r/2p1bppp/p2p4/1p1P4/1n1PR3/5N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ2K1 b kq - 0 1
>
>Tg3b3 with [Bishop Pair = 500]
>
>00:00:02.8 -0,75 1 4 O-O
>00:00:02.9 -0,15 1 12 Nxd5
>00:00:02.9 -0,31 2 166 Nxd5 Qe2
>00:00:02.9 -0,31 2 431 Bf5
>00:00:02.9 0,10 2 531 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5
>00:00:03.1 0,10 3 892 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5
>00:00:03.2 -0,05 4 2865 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Ng5
>00:00:03.3 0,00 4 7238 Nxd5 Ng5 O-O Qh5
>00:00:03.7 0,02 5 18689 Nxd5 Ng5 Nf6 Qf3 O-O
>00:00:03.7 0,02 5 20944 Bf5
>00:00:03.7 0,18 5 21625 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Nc3 Nxc3 bxc3
>00:00:04.0 0,21 6 33068 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8
>00:00:04.9 0,21 7 84244 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8 Qxc4
>00:00:06.7 0,21 8 210420 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8 Qxc4
>00:00:12.4 0,23 9 681436 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Qe1 Be6 Nc3 Nxc3 Qxc3 O-O Bf4
>00:00:25.1 0,41 10 1823275 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Nxc3 Bxc3 Bf6 Ba5
>00:00:49.9 0,40 11 4317423 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Nf6 a4 b4 Na2 c5
>00:01:55.5 0,39 12 10731482 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Nb4 Ne1 Re8
>00:05:08.5 0,37 13 29566029 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2
>00:13:28.1 0,36 14 91594057 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bg5 O-O Bxe7
>(Move: Bf5 (1/28) depth=15)
>
>Betazoid Tg3b2 with [Bishop Pair = 300]
>
>00:00:01.8 -0,75 1 4 O-O
>00:00:01.9 -0,15 1 12 Nxd5
>00:00:01.9 -0,31 2 166 Nxd5 Qe2
>00:00:01.9 -0,31 2 431 Bf5
>00:00:01.9 0,10 2 531 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5
>00:00:02.1 0,10 3 892 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5
>00:00:02.2 -0,05 4 2865 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Ng5
>00:00:02.2 0,00 4 7238 Nxd5 Ng5 O-O Qh5
>00:00:02.4 0,02 5 18687 Nxd5 Ng5 Nf6 Qf3 O-O
>00:00:02.4 0,02 5 20925 Bf5
>00:00:02.5 0,18 5 21666 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Nc3 Nxc3 bxc3
>00:00:02.8 0,21 6 33077 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8
>00:00:03.2 0,21 7 84260 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8 Qxc4
>00:00:04.2 0,21 8 209791 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8 Qxc4
>00:00:07.3 0,23 9 680435 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Qe1 Be6 Nc3 Nxc3 Qxc3 O-O Bf4
>00:00:14.7 0,41 10 1873558 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Nxc3 Bxc3 Bf6 Ba5
>00:00:28.3 0,40 11 4355651 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Nf6 a4 b4 Na2 c5
>00:01:04.0 0,39 12 11027147 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Nb4 Ne1 Re8
>00:02:49.0 0,35 13 30278902 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bg5 O-O Bxe7 Nxe7 Nc3 Re8 Qd2 b4 Ne4
>Bxe4
>00:07:48.2 0,36 14 86059358 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bg5
>00:29:40.2 0,37 15 327255945 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bg5 f6 Bd2 O-O
>(Move: Bf5 (1/28) depth=16)
>
>Tg3b met [Bishop Pair = 150]
>
>00:00:03.3 -0,79 1 4 O-O
>00:00:03.4 -0,19 1 12 Nxd5
>00:00:03.4 -0,35 2 166 Nxd5 Qe2
>00:00:03.4 -0,35 2 431 Bf5
>00:00:03.5 0,05 2 531 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5
>00:00:03.6 0,05 3 892 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5
>00:00:03.7 -0,09 4 2867 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Ng5
>00:00:03.8 -0,04 4 7435 Nxd5 Ng5 O-O Qh5
>00:00:04.1 -0,01 5 18542 Nxd5 Ng5 Nf6 Qf3 O-O
>00:00:04.1 -0,01 5 20795 Bf5
>00:00:04.1 0,14 5 21477 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Nc3 Nxc3 bxc3
>00:00:04.4 0,16 6 32741 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8
>00:00:05.4 0,16 7 86566 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8 Qxc4
>00:00:07.2 0,16 8 230398 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 c4 bxc4 Qa4+ Kf8 Qxc4
>00:00:13.0 0,22 9 709303 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Qe1 Bg4 Bg5 Bxf3 gxf3
>00:00:23.5 0,39 10 1742090 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bg5 O-O Bxe7 Nxe7 a4 Bg4 Qd3
>00:00:45.1 0,33 11 3915687 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 Bg4 Re1 O-O Nc3
>00:01:41.5 0,33 12 9748349 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Be6
>00:04:52.9 0,36 13 28715021 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bd2 O-O Nc3 Be6
>00:14:31.7 0,33 14 86225488 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Qd2 O-O Nc3 Nxc3
>00:52:02.5 0,35 15 306228426 Bf5 Re2 Nxd5 Bg5 O-O
>
>
>
>[Personality = Betazoid Tg3b3] * testing Bishop Pair parameter, normally 100
>[Pawn Value = 100]
>[Knight Value = 101]
>[Bishop Value = 100]
>[Rook Value = 101]
>[Queen Value = 98]
>[King Safety = 150]
>[Mobility = 120]
>[Pawn Structure = 105]
>[Passed Pawns = 105]
>[Passed Pawn King Tropism = 130]
>[Traditional Isolated Pawns = 80]
>[Progressive Isolated Pawns = 125]
>[Pins = 100]
>[Bishop Pair = 500]
>[Chess Knowledge = 200]
>[Attractiveness = 135]
>[Attacking = 130]
>[Strength of Play = 100]
>[Draw Contempt Factor = 0.00]
>[Selective Search = 130]
>[Search Technique = NULLMOVE]
>[Pruning = MISC_01] * TREE: if (reduce & rd=0) goto tr76
>[Pruning ? MISC_25]
>[Pruning = MISC_37]
>[Pruning ? MISC_40]
>[Pruning = MISC_22] * Somewhat more safe Selective Search
>[Pruning = MISC_09]
>[Pruning = MISC_10]
>[Pruning = MISC09_2.00]
>[Pruning = MISC10_4.00]
>[Pruning = MISC_12]
>[Pruning = SEX_HIST_DEPTH_9] * 4
>[Pruning = MISC_03] * Move ordering (safe) (speedup 4%)
>[Pruning = MISC_46]
>[Pruning = M46_HASH_ON]
>[Adjusted Selectivity MIDG = 4] * Maximum selective depth (midgame)
>[Adjusted Selectivity END0 = 4] * Maximum selective depth (early endgame)
>[Adjusted Selectivity END1 = 4] * Maximum selective depth (endgame)
>[Adjusted Selectivity END2 = 3] * Maximum selective depth (simple endgame)
>[ANTI-GM = OFF]
>[EVALUATION = NORMAL]
>[Extensions (remaining)= 3]
>[Extensions (checks)= 0]
>[Extensions (captures)= 0]
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