Author: Mike Byrne
Date: 18:29:15 11/10/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 10, 2003 at 20:59:25, Bob Durrett wrote:
>On November 10, 2003 at 15:00:53, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>>According to Chessbase GM Shaposhnikov has been disqualified from the first
>>European Internet championships qualifier because he supposedly used a computer
>>program.
>>
>>I just looked at some of his games.
>>He indeed played many moves suggested also by Fritz 8 after a few seconds.
>>
>>There is some evidence. Is it enough to disqualify a GM?
>>I wonder whether they had more.
>>
>>[D]4rr1k/1bq1n2p/pp1ppbp1/8/2P1PPQ1/1P2B2P/P3N2K/1BR3R1 b - - 0 30
>>
>>In this position Shaposhnikov played 30...Nf5 in 3 seconds.
>>
>>[D] 4rr1k/1bq1n2p/pp1ppbp1/8/2P1PPQ1/1P2B2P/P3N2K/1BR3R1 b - - 0 30
>>
>>Here 21.f4 in 8 seconds.
>>
>>In the game against Chessbase member Rainer Knaak he played quite a few Fritz
>>moves in a row...
>>
>>[Event "EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP - CANDIDATES TOUR"]
>>[Site "playchess.com"]
>>[Date "2003.11.08"]
>>[Round "11"]
>>[White "SerS"]
>>[Black "E-Shaposhnikov"]
>>[Result "0-1"]
>>[WhiteElo "2632"]
>>[BlackElo "2798"]
>>[PlyCount "80"]
>>[EventDate "2003.11.08"]
>>
>>1. e4 {2} c5 {1} 2. Nf3 {1} e6 {1} 3. d3 {1} d5 {2} 4. Qe2 {2} g6 {3} 5. g3 {2}
>>Bg7 {1} 6. Bg2 {1} Nf6 {1} 7. O-O {8} Nc6 {1} 8. c3 {12} O-O {5} 9. Re1 {10}
>>Nd7 {1} 10. Bf4 {11} d4 {6} 11. e5 {6} h6 {7} 12. h4 {3} Nb6 {16} 13. c4 {3}
>>Nd7 {7} 14. Nbd2 {2} Kh7 {8} 15. Nf1 {5} Qe7 {8} 16. N1h2 {2} Rb8 {9} 17. Ng4 {
>>5} Re8 {5} 18. a3 {11} Qf8 {7} 19. Rab1 {6} a5 {3} 20. b3 {6} Ra8 {2} 21. Qe4 {
>>6} Ne7 {16} 22. b4 {6} axb4 {2} 23. axb4 {2} Nf5 {4} 24. h5 {8} gxh5 {11} 25.
>>Nf6+ {15} Bxf6 {9} 26. exf6 {1} Nxf6 {2} 27. Qe2 {9} cxb4 {9} 28. Be5 {7} Nd7 {
>>5} 29. Nd2 {1} Nxe5 {9} 30. Qxe5 {1} Qg7 {1} 31. Qe4 {4} Ra2 {3} 32. Nf3 {5}
>>Rg8 {3} 33. Rf1 {13} Kh8 {4} 34. Rxb4 {14} Nxg3 {9} 35. fxg3 {7} Rxg2+ {4} 36.
>>Kh1 {6} Rxg3 {2} 37. Rb2 {8} Rh3+ {8} 38. Nh2 {6} f5 {4} 39. Qe2 {6} Bd7 {9}
>>40. Rb6 {5} Rg3 {SerS resigns 6} 0-1
>>
>>and in this game he played some quite strong (computer?) moves in a complicated
>>position.
>>
>>[Event "EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP - CANDIDATES TOUR"]
>>[Site "playchess.com"]
>>[Date "2003.11.08"]
>>[Round "11"]
>>[White "SerS"]
>>[Black "E-Shaposhnikov"]
>>[Result "0-1"]
>>[WhiteElo "2632"]
>>[BlackElo "2798"]
>>[PlyCount "80"]
>>[EventDate "2003.11.08"]
>>
>>1. e4 {2} c5 {1} 2. Nf3 {1} e6 {1} 3. d3 {1} d5 {2} 4. Qe2 {2} g6 {3} 5. g3 {2}
>>Bg7 {1} 6. Bg2 {1} Nf6 {1} 7. O-O {8} Nc6 {1} 8. c3 {12} O-O {5} 9. Re1 {10}
>>Nd7 {1} 10. Bf4 {11} d4 {6} 11. e5 {6} h6 {7} 12. h4 {3} Nb6 {16} 13. c4 {3}
>>Nd7 {7} 14. Nbd2 {2} Kh7 {8} 15. Nf1 {5} Qe7 {8} 16. N1h2 {2} Rb8 {9} 17. Ng4 {
>>5} Re8 {5} 18. a3 {11} Qf8 {7} 19. Rab1 {6} a5 {3} 20. b3 {6} Ra8 {2} 21. Qe4 {
>>6} Ne7 {16} 22. b4 {6} axb4 {2} 23. axb4 {2} Nf5 {4} 24. h5 {8} gxh5 {11} 25.
>>Nf6+ {15} Bxf6 {9} 26. exf6 {1} Nxf6 {2} 27. Qe2 {9} cxb4 {9} 28. Be5 {7} Nd7 {
>>5} 29. Nd2 {1} Nxe5 {9} 30. Qxe5 {1} Qg7 {1} 31. Qe4 {4} Ra2 {3} 32. Nf3 {5}
>>Rg8 {3} 33. Rf1 {13} Kh8 {4} 34. Rxb4 {14} Nxg3 {9} 35. fxg3 {7} Rxg2+ {4} 36.
>>Kh1 {6} Rxg3 {2} 37. Rb2 {8} Rh3+ {8} 38. Nh2 {6} f5 {4} 39. Qe2 {6} Bd7 {9}
>>40. Rb6 {5} Rg3 {SerS resigns 6} 0-1
>>
>>Michael
>
>
>If anybody can distinguish between the moves of Fritz and of a human GM, it
>should be a team of real human GMs. One would have to have a lot of "guts" to
>use Fritz in a GM tournament when the tournament rules exclude computer
>assistance! [Of course, it's OK in "Advanced Chess" tournaments.]
>
>I suspect that most if not all of the people here at CCC would be unable to
>reliably distinguish between GM moves and Fritz moves. How many of us are "FIDE
>certified and fully bonified" GMs? How many of us can reliably recognize the
>difference between a GM move and the chess move of a lesser human?
>
>The real question to me is: To what extent are modern chess engine moves
>different from GM moves? The positions where long-range planning is required
>might be one case where the difference might be evident. But I am not a GM, so
>I cannot say for sure.
>
>Bob D.
It's not one specific move - it 's the pattern of moves - playing the exact same
moves as a program over a fixed number of moves. In real life, that does happen
over and over again in sequential games. It's the same method that a chess
program clone is identified. Computers will play the same move over and over
again in the same position. It's identifiable and repeatable- in fact every
program gives off a "signature" in every game that can be identfied. No human
will play 8 moves in a row in exact sequence of a program and then do that again
in the next game. Humans, GM or not, do not play like computers in that type of
sequencing (carbon copy 8 moves in a row non/opening/non end game - essentialy
random positions ) and then do it again the very next game. It may happen once
in a long while, it will not happen in back-to back games.
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