Author: Bob Durrett
Date: 19:15:23 11/10/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 10, 2003 at 21:29:15, Mike Byrne wrote:
>On November 10, 2003 at 20:59:25, Bob Durrett wrote:
>
>>On November 10, 2003 at 15:00:53, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>
>>>According to Chessbase GM Shaposhnikov has been disqualified from the first
>>>European Internet championships qualifier because he supposedly used a computer
>>>program.
>>>
>>>I just looked at some of his games.
>>>He indeed played many moves suggested also by Fritz 8 after a few seconds.
>>>
>>>There is some evidence. Is it enough to disqualify a GM?
>>>I wonder whether they had more.
>>>
>>>[D]4rr1k/1bq1n2p/pp1ppbp1/8/2P1PPQ1/1P2B2P/P3N2K/1BR3R1 b - - 0 30
>>>
>>>In this position Shaposhnikov played 30...Nf5 in 3 seconds.
>>>
>>>[D] 4rr1k/1bq1n2p/pp1ppbp1/8/2P1PPQ1/1P2B2P/P3N2K/1BR3R1 b - - 0 30
>>>
>>>Here 21.f4 in 8 seconds.
>>>
>>>In the game against Chessbase member Rainer Knaak he played quite a few Fritz
>>>moves in a row...
>>>
>>>[Event "EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP - CANDIDATES TOUR"]
>>>[Site "playchess.com"]
>>>[Date "2003.11.08"]
>>>[Round "11"]
>>>[White "SerS"]
>>>[Black "E-Shaposhnikov"]
>>>[Result "0-1"]
>>>[WhiteElo "2632"]
>>>[BlackElo "2798"]
>>>[PlyCount "80"]
>>>[EventDate "2003.11.08"]
>>>
>>>1. e4 {2} c5 {1} 2. Nf3 {1} e6 {1} 3. d3 {1} d5 {2} 4. Qe2 {2} g6 {3} 5. g3 {2}
>>>Bg7 {1} 6. Bg2 {1} Nf6 {1} 7. O-O {8} Nc6 {1} 8. c3 {12} O-O {5} 9. Re1 {10}
>>>Nd7 {1} 10. Bf4 {11} d4 {6} 11. e5 {6} h6 {7} 12. h4 {3} Nb6 {16} 13. c4 {3}
>>>Nd7 {7} 14. Nbd2 {2} Kh7 {8} 15. Nf1 {5} Qe7 {8} 16. N1h2 {2} Rb8 {9} 17. Ng4 {
>>>5} Re8 {5} 18. a3 {11} Qf8 {7} 19. Rab1 {6} a5 {3} 20. b3 {6} Ra8 {2} 21. Qe4 {
>>>6} Ne7 {16} 22. b4 {6} axb4 {2} 23. axb4 {2} Nf5 {4} 24. h5 {8} gxh5 {11} 25.
>>>Nf6+ {15} Bxf6 {9} 26. exf6 {1} Nxf6 {2} 27. Qe2 {9} cxb4 {9} 28. Be5 {7} Nd7 {
>>>5} 29. Nd2 {1} Nxe5 {9} 30. Qxe5 {1} Qg7 {1} 31. Qe4 {4} Ra2 {3} 32. Nf3 {5}
>>>Rg8 {3} 33. Rf1 {13} Kh8 {4} 34. Rxb4 {14} Nxg3 {9} 35. fxg3 {7} Rxg2+ {4} 36.
>>>Kh1 {6} Rxg3 {2} 37. Rb2 {8} Rh3+ {8} 38. Nh2 {6} f5 {4} 39. Qe2 {6} Bd7 {9}
>>>40. Rb6 {5} Rg3 {SerS resigns 6} 0-1
>>>
>>>and in this game he played some quite strong (computer?) moves in a complicated
>>>position.
>>>
>>>[Event "EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP - CANDIDATES TOUR"]
>>>[Site "playchess.com"]
>>>[Date "2003.11.08"]
>>>[Round "11"]
>>>[White "SerS"]
>>>[Black "E-Shaposhnikov"]
>>>[Result "0-1"]
>>>[WhiteElo "2632"]
>>>[BlackElo "2798"]
>>>[PlyCount "80"]
>>>[EventDate "2003.11.08"]
>>>
>>>1. e4 {2} c5 {1} 2. Nf3 {1} e6 {1} 3. d3 {1} d5 {2} 4. Qe2 {2} g6 {3} 5. g3 {2}
>>>Bg7 {1} 6. Bg2 {1} Nf6 {1} 7. O-O {8} Nc6 {1} 8. c3 {12} O-O {5} 9. Re1 {10}
>>>Nd7 {1} 10. Bf4 {11} d4 {6} 11. e5 {6} h6 {7} 12. h4 {3} Nb6 {16} 13. c4 {3}
>>>Nd7 {7} 14. Nbd2 {2} Kh7 {8} 15. Nf1 {5} Qe7 {8} 16. N1h2 {2} Rb8 {9} 17. Ng4 {
>>>5} Re8 {5} 18. a3 {11} Qf8 {7} 19. Rab1 {6} a5 {3} 20. b3 {6} Ra8 {2} 21. Qe4 {
>>>6} Ne7 {16} 22. b4 {6} axb4 {2} 23. axb4 {2} Nf5 {4} 24. h5 {8} gxh5 {11} 25.
>>>Nf6+ {15} Bxf6 {9} 26. exf6 {1} Nxf6 {2} 27. Qe2 {9} cxb4 {9} 28. Be5 {7} Nd7 {
>>>5} 29. Nd2 {1} Nxe5 {9} 30. Qxe5 {1} Qg7 {1} 31. Qe4 {4} Ra2 {3} 32. Nf3 {5}
>>>Rg8 {3} 33. Rf1 {13} Kh8 {4} 34. Rxb4 {14} Nxg3 {9} 35. fxg3 {7} Rxg2+ {4} 36.
>>>Kh1 {6} Rxg3 {2} 37. Rb2 {8} Rh3+ {8} 38. Nh2 {6} f5 {4} 39. Qe2 {6} Bd7 {9}
>>>40. Rb6 {5} Rg3 {SerS resigns 6} 0-1
>>>
>>>Michael
>>
>>
>>If anybody can distinguish between the moves of Fritz and of a human GM, it
>>should be a team of real human GMs. One would have to have a lot of "guts" to
>>use Fritz in a GM tournament when the tournament rules exclude computer
>>assistance! [Of course, it's OK in "Advanced Chess" tournaments.]
>>
>>I suspect that most if not all of the people here at CCC would be unable to
>>reliably distinguish between GM moves and Fritz moves. How many of us are "FIDE
>>certified and fully bonified" GMs? How many of us can reliably recognize the
>>difference between a GM move and the chess move of a lesser human?
>>
>>The real question to me is: To what extent are modern chess engine moves
>>different from GM moves? The positions where long-range planning is required
>>might be one case where the difference might be evident. But I am not a GM, so
>>I cannot say for sure.
>>
>>Bob D.
>
>It's not one specific move - it 's the pattern of moves - playing the exact same
>moves as a program over a fixed number of moves. In real life, that does happen
>over and over again in sequential games. It's the same method that a chess
>program clone is identified. Computers will play the same move over and over
>again in the same position. It's identifiable and repeatable- in fact every
>program gives off a "signature" in every game that can be identfied. No human
>will play 8 moves in a row in exact sequence of a program and then do that again
>in the next game. Humans, GM or not, do not play like computers in that type of
>sequencing (carbon copy 8 moves in a row non/opening/non end game - essentialy
>random positions ) and then do it again the very next game. It may happen once
>in a long while, it will not happen in back-to back games.
I vaguely recall a bulletin some one posted here quite awhile back. The idea
expressed then was that the moves a chess engine selects, especially in blitz,
depends on how much time the opponent takes, assuming pondering is on. The
variabillity/uncertainty in the times taken add a degree of
randomness/uncertainty in the move selections. Hence the notion that the moves
are completely repeatable is not quite on the mark. Only if the times taken
were the same and the computer were the same would the moves necessarily be the
same. Perhaps other factors, such as the size of the hash tables, personality
settings, and the speed of the processor(s) might also be variables which would
add some variation from one trial to the next. How can the tester make sure
that all such variables are the same when the game score is examined
post-mortem?
Nevertheless, there may still be a lot of correlation between the move sequences
of one engine and another. I'm not sure how much, however.
The question which bothers me most about all this is that I, as a chess amateur,
do not have the slightest clue as to what moves a GM would make in blitz chess.
How could I say that a particular move sequence is NOT one that a GM might come
up with?
Bob D.
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