Author: Uri Blass
Date: 07:21:45 11/13/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 13, 2003 at 10:03:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On November 13, 2003 at 01:59:30, Les Fernandez wrote: > >>On November 12, 2003 at 18:21:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On November 12, 2003 at 18:04:18, Dan Sicerly wrote: >>> >>>>On November 12, 2003 at 13:24:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:56:09, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:21:46, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:16:44, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 02:11:04, Derek Paquette wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I'm reading through all these posts and watched the games, and something >>>>>>>>>occurred to me, especially what the CEO of chessbase said, that kasparov was >>>>>>>>>sent the versions of x3d fritz as they were created...so... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>If chessbase were able to clone kasparov use him, study him, poke holes in his >>>>>>>>>game, analyse him for hundreds of hours, how well would they do? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>But thats a question we'll never be able to answer, but how about this , >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>If they sent x3d version fritz with the same hardware to a large super >>>>>>>>>grandmaster tournament, a round robin, where all the players not only had to >>>>>>>>>prepare for the computer, but other humans, how would it fair? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I think we are seriously under estimating this beast... >>>>>>>>>just my opinion of course. >>>>>>>>>-Derek >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>This is exactly what chessbase want you to believe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I think that all these matches are unimportant matches and it may be better if >>>>>>>>we ignore them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>I do not trust the humans in these match to try to win the matches and I suspect >>>>>>>>that they believe that draw can give them more money. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I can add that the fact that kasparov got another match after drawing with Fritz >>>>>>>when Smirin never got another match after beating the machines increase my >>>>>>>impression(hardware was slower against smirin but time control was also faster >>>>>>>and the second factor is something that is supposed to help the machines so I >>>>>>>think that smirin's result is better than kasparov's result and kramnik's >>>>>>>result). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Players may believe that it is better if they do not win because if they draw >>>>>>>they have better chances to get another match. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Kasparov lost to IBM Deeper Blue and still has not gotten a rematch, and I >>>>>>believe that X3D Fritz with the inferior hardware is much better than Deeper >>>>>>Blue :-) >>>>>> >>>>>>Jorge >>>>> >>>>>Why don't you knock off the wild speculation, and just watch. If fritz >>>>>wins, it might be as good as, or better than deep blue. If it loses, it >>>>>isn't. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You're not just being funny are you? I have heard you say a million times >>>>that the numbers that deepblue calculates makes it impossible for any micro to >>>>beat it. >>> >>>I still believe that although the gap is closing. IE I have seen a quad-cpu >>>machine run Crafty at 7M nodes per second. Not to DB's speed, but definitely >>>closer than 3 years ago. >>> >>>But to make statements such as fritz is much better is simply ridiculous until >>>Fritz manages to beat Kasparov in the match. Until it does, there is no >>>evidence to support this "superiority". If Fritz doesn't win (ie it loses or >>>draws) there is also no evidence to support this since DB actually _won_. >> >>Hi Bob, >> >>I am not sure much can be deduced by this match if fritz loses since I strongly >>believe fatigue is a variable in man vs machine and this match is made up of >>only 4 games whereas the DB was 6. To me it may be more conclusive if this was >>a similar 6 game format. If I can find the results it might be interesting to >>see how Kaspy has done if we look at his win/loss record of the first half of >>all his games played on this level and compare it to the last half record. Do >>you happen to have all the DB, Junior results? If so can you send them to me, I >>would be interested in them. >> >>Thx Bob, > >My only comment is that if Fritz wins, the debate can continue. If Fritz >loses, then the discussion is moot for the time being. Kasparov has, IMHO, >a significant disadvantage using the 3d stuff. I have used that stuff >myself and I would not want to do it for four hours. I notice he leaves >the "board" frequently, which probably helps a bit. But this is a flawed >idea, IMHO, as he should be playing on a real board. > >If Fritz still manages to lose, then comparing it to DB is difficult, since >DB won 7 years ago, on hardware 7 years older than today's. If Fritz wins, >then fritz and DB can be used in the same sentence with some sense. You forget that deeper blue had the advantage of not being a commercial program so Kasparov could not train at home against it to learn its weaknesses. Uri
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