Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 11:37:12 11/13/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 13, 2003 at 11:17:24, Uri Blass wrote: >On November 13, 2003 at 10:58:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On November 13, 2003 at 10:21:45, Uri Blass wrote: >> >>>On November 13, 2003 at 10:03:48, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On November 13, 2003 at 01:59:30, Les Fernandez wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 18:21:27, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 18:04:18, Dan Sicerly wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 13:24:32, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:56:09, Jorge Pichard wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:21:46, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 03:16:44, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On November 12, 2003 at 02:11:04, Derek Paquette wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I'm reading through all these posts and watched the games, and something >>>>>>>>>>>>occurred to me, especially what the CEO of chessbase said, that kasparov was >>>>>>>>>>>>sent the versions of x3d fritz as they were created...so... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>If chessbase were able to clone kasparov use him, study him, poke holes in his >>>>>>>>>>>>game, analyse him for hundreds of hours, how well would they do? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>But thats a question we'll never be able to answer, but how about this , >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>If they sent x3d version fritz with the same hardware to a large super >>>>>>>>>>>>grandmaster tournament, a round robin, where all the players not only had to >>>>>>>>>>>>prepare for the computer, but other humans, how would it fair? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>I think we are seriously under estimating this beast... >>>>>>>>>>>>just my opinion of course. >>>>>>>>>>>>-Derek >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>This is exactly what chessbase want you to believe. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I think that all these matches are unimportant matches and it may be better if >>>>>>>>>>>we ignore them. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I do not trust the humans in these match to try to win the matches and I suspect >>>>>>>>>>>that they believe that draw can give them more money. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>I can add that the fact that kasparov got another match after drawing with Fritz >>>>>>>>>>when Smirin never got another match after beating the machines increase my >>>>>>>>>>impression(hardware was slower against smirin but time control was also faster >>>>>>>>>>and the second factor is something that is supposed to help the machines so I >>>>>>>>>>think that smirin's result is better than kasparov's result and kramnik's >>>>>>>>>>result). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Players may believe that it is better if they do not win because if they draw >>>>>>>>>>they have better chances to get another match. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Uri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Kasparov lost to IBM Deeper Blue and still has not gotten a rematch, and I >>>>>>>>>believe that X3D Fritz with the inferior hardware is much better than Deeper >>>>>>>>>Blue :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Why don't you knock off the wild speculation, and just watch. If fritz >>>>>>>>wins, it might be as good as, or better than deep blue. If it loses, it >>>>>>>>isn't. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You're not just being funny are you? I have heard you say a million times >>>>>>>that the numbers that deepblue calculates makes it impossible for any micro to >>>>>>>beat it. >>>>>> >>>>>>I still believe that although the gap is closing. IE I have seen a quad-cpu >>>>>>machine run Crafty at 7M nodes per second. Not to DB's speed, but definitely >>>>>>closer than 3 years ago. >>>>>> >>>>>>But to make statements such as fritz is much better is simply ridiculous until >>>>>>Fritz manages to beat Kasparov in the match. Until it does, there is no >>>>>>evidence to support this "superiority". If Fritz doesn't win (ie it loses or >>>>>>draws) there is also no evidence to support this since DB actually _won_. >>>>> >>>>>Hi Bob, >>>>> >>>>>I am not sure much can be deduced by this match if fritz loses since I strongly >>>>>believe fatigue is a variable in man vs machine and this match is made up of >>>>>only 4 games whereas the DB was 6. To me it may be more conclusive if this was >>>>>a similar 6 game format. If I can find the results it might be interesting to >>>>>see how Kaspy has done if we look at his win/loss record of the first half of >>>>>all his games played on this level and compare it to the last half record. Do >>>>>you happen to have all the DB, Junior results? If so can you send them to me, I >>>>>would be interested in them. >>>>> >>>>>Thx Bob, >>>> >>>>My only comment is that if Fritz wins, the debate can continue. If Fritz >>>>loses, then the discussion is moot for the time being. Kasparov has, IMHO, >>>>a significant disadvantage using the 3d stuff. I have used that stuff >>>>myself and I would not want to do it for four hours. I notice he leaves >>>>the "board" frequently, which probably helps a bit. But this is a flawed >>>>idea, IMHO, as he should be playing on a real board. >>>> >>>>If Fritz still manages to lose, then comparing it to DB is difficult, since >>>>DB won 7 years ago, on hardware 7 years older than today's. If Fritz wins, >>>>then fritz and DB can be used in the same sentence with some sense. >>> >>>You forget that deeper blue had the advantage of not being a commercial program >>>so Kasparov could not train at home against it to learn its weaknesses. >>> >>>Uri >> >> >>I don't know that he can train against this version of DF either. Remember >>that he _had_ played the previous version in 1996. This version that beat him >>was put together right before the match so no practice would have been possible >>had it been agreed to... > >It was possible by delaying the match. > >It is also clear that kasparov has at least the commercial fritz and it seems >similiar to the real Fritz that is playing. > >Fritz8 likes Nxf2 exactly like the Fritz that was playing and people found that >public Fritz8 can find the castling move that shredder does not like after >enough time. > >Kasparov did not have deeper blue of few months before the match and he even did >not have the version of 1996 to train against it. > >Uri No, but one could make the case that the 1996 match _was_ training for the 1997 match. :)
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