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Subject: Re: Shredder writes theory

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 07:12:06 11/16/03

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On November 16, 2003 at 10:06:08, Sandro Necchi wrote:

>On November 16, 2003 at 09:04:03, Uri Blass wrote:
>
>>On November 16, 2003 at 06:08:59, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>
>>>On November 16, 2003 at 05:34:31, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 16, 2003 at 04:47:15, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 15, 2003 at 19:29:52, Ziad Haddad wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>>If u see the chessbase homepage, u will see that in the last informator of
>>>>>>chess, Karpov used a computer chess game between CT15-Shredder7 to comment his
>>>>>>game. In fact Shredder has found a theoretical novelty.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, this is wrong the novelty was developped by our team, not by the program...
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Talking about Junior, i must say that this program surprises me each time he
>>>>>>plays, but he alternates the best and the worst. To tell do not use Junior to
>>>>>>analyse Openings, i don't fully agree with this statement. Better say don't use
>>>>>>it to analyse positional openings, but it's a suitable engine to analyse opened
>>>>>>and tactical positions issued from the openings.
>>>>>
>>>>>You cannot expect computers to find novelties, at least in the early stage of
>>>>>the game, these must come from human people that works on the book.
>>>
>>>Hi Uri,
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why not?
>>>
>>>Because they cannot see deeply enough.
>>>In middle game it would be different. Also theory has developed making many
>>>games and thanks to correspondance chess also in many variations?
>>>
>>>
>>>>If the engine is strong enough it should be able to find novelties.
>>>
>>>Ok, I would agree on this when the strenght of the programs would be at least
>>>500 points higher than they are today.
>>>
>>>>Part of the new moves may be wrong but part of them should be better moves.
>>>
>>>Well, normally a novelty is worth if a set of correct following moves is
>>>considered as well. If some are not good, than it would not work...or not?
>
>Hi,
>>
>>
>>I say that part of the new moves that they suggest may be good.
>>
>>Here is an example for a novelty that I played in a correspondence game at move
>>13(preliminary XV olympiad Canada-Israel).
>>
>>Shredder7.ctg has only 13...Bb4 with ? and I could find no games with 13...Ne8
>
>OK, after move 12th it could be that they find playble moves, it is difficult
>after 5 or 6 moves; it is more likely after 18 or 20 moves...

Ok moves 5-6 are usually positions that were played hundreds of times so
I also do not expect humans to have novelties there.

The only cases when I may expect to find novelties are in cases that the line is
very rare.

>
>>
>>As far as I remember 13...Ne8 was suggested by at least one of my chess programs
>>after a long search and it is possible that it was also suggested after a short
>>time but I do not remember at this moment.
>>
>>The game is still not finished but
>>My opponent blundered later at move 29(Fritz can play the same blunder after
>>some minutes of search but not after more than it) and now I have a clear
>>advantage(I will give the full game only after it is finished).
>
>A good novelty is an improvement, if the opponent blunders it could be good for
>one game only, so not an improvement..

I think that the position was equal before the blunder.
I do not expect every novelty to win the game espacially when I am black.

Uri



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