Author: Uri Blass
Date: 16:38:31 11/19/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 19, 2003 at 19:09:33, Matthew White wrote: >On November 17, 2003 at 20:05:08, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On November 17, 2003 at 18:52:42, Matthew White wrote: >> >>>On November 17, 2003 at 18:19:56, Lois Winters wrote: >>> >>>>On November 17, 2003 at 16:18:20, Terry McCracken wrote: >>>> >>>>>None of my top commercial programmes find 14..Ne8! followed by 15..f5 >>>>> >>>>>Junior 8 comes close, but chose Nh5 and no f5, although in analysis mode it does >>>>>look at Ne8 and f5, strange...? >>>>> >>>>>Junior 8 also gets the second best evaluation compared to all other commercials, >>>>>and basically feels White is winning at move 45 but not at 14., but it does have >>>>>a good eval for White, about + 0.80 >>>>> >>>>>Crafty lives up to its name and considers White +- at move 14 and 45 ++! >>>>> >>>>>I tested Shredder 7.04, Chess Tiger 15, HIARCS 9, Junior 8, and yes even Fritz >>>>>8...at least Fritz 8 ver. 8.0.0.23 didn't look at 14...Bd6?!:) >>>>> >>>>>Junior scored the best among the commercials but it was Crafty 19.03 that was on >>>>>the right track consistently. >>>>> >>>>>The test was 3 min. for each programme, on my very slow PIII 500, 128MB of RAM >>>>>using 64MB of hash. >>>>> >>>>>My resources were down so the tests were not optimum but still good. >>>>> >>>>>Here's Craftys scores at moves 14.. and 45.. >>>>> >>>>>Hiarcs 9 - McCracken,T >>>>>r1bq1rk1/1p1nbppp/1Pp2n2/p1Pp4/Q2Pp3/BNN1P2P/P4PP1/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 1 >>>>> >>>>>Analysis by Crafty 19.03: >>>>> >>>>>14...Re8 15.Nxa5 >>>>> ² (0.62) Depth: 1/7 00:00:00 >>>>>14...Re8 15.Nxa5 >>>>> ² (0.62) Depth: 2/7 00:00:00 >>>>>14...Re8 15.Be2 Rf8 16.Nxa5 >>>>> ± (0.81) Depth: 3/7 00:00:00 >>>>>14...Re8 15.Be2 Rf8 16.Nxa5 >>>>> ± (0.81) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 >>>>>14...Re8 15.Be2 Nf8 16.0-0 Ng6 17.Nxa5 >>>>> ± (1.33) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 >>>>>14...Nxb6 15.cxb6 Bxa3 16.Qxa3 Qxb6 >>>>> ± (1.29) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 >>>>>14...Nb8 15.Be2 Bf5 16.0-0 Nbd7 17.Nxa5 >>>>> ± (1.20) Depth: 5/13 00:00:00 >>>>>14...Rb8 15.Qxa5 Re8 16.Be2 Rf8 >>>>> ± (1.06) Depth: 5/13 00:00:01 >>>>>14...Rb8 15.Qxa5 Kh8 16.g4 Kg8 17.Be2 >>>>> ± (1.17) Depth: 6/19 00:00:01 40kN >>>>>14...Rb8 15.Be2 Ra8 16.0-0 Nb8 17.Bb4 Bf5 18.Bxa5 >>>>> +- (1.52) Depth: 7/19 00:00:01 87kN >>>>>14...Bd6 15.Be2 Nxb6 16.cxb6 Bxa3 17.Qxa3 Qxb6 >>>>> +- (1.46) Depth: 7/19 00:00:01 134kN >>>>>14...Ne8 15.Be2 Bh4 16.0-0 Qg5 17.Bb4 Nef6 18.Bxa5 >>>>> ± (1.24) Depth: 7/19 00:00:02 155kN >>>>>14...Re8 15.Be2 Nf8 16.0-0 Ng6 17.Bb2 Bf5 18.Nxa5 >>>>> ± (1.22) Depth: 7/19 00:00:02 180kN >>>>>14...h6 15.Be2 Nxb6 16.cxb6 Bxa3 17.Qxa3 Qxb6 >>>>> ± (1.21) Depth: 7/19 00:00:02 202kN >>>>>14...h6 15.Be2 Nh7 16.0-0 Bh4 17.Nxa5 Qf6 18.Qb4 >>>>> ± (1.34) Depth: 8/19 00:00:03 275kN >>>>>14...Ne8 15.Be2 f5 16.0-0 f4 17.Nxa5 f3 18.gxf3 exf3 >>>>> ± (1.19) Depth: 8/19 00:00:03 369kN >>>>>14...Ne8 15.Be2 f5 16.0-0 f4 17.Nxa5 f3 18.gxf3 exf3 >>>>> ± (1.19) Depth: 9/23 00:00:05 540kN >>>>>14...Ne8 15.Be2 f5 16.g3 Ndf6 17.Nxa5 Qd7 18.0-0 f4 19.h4 fxe3 20.fxe3 >>>>> ± (1.23) Depth: 10/24 00:00:08 935kN >>>>>14...Ne8 15.Nxa5 Nef6 16.Bc1 Rb8 17.Be2 Nxc5 18.dxc5 Bxc5 19.0-0 Bxb6 >>>>> ± (1.18) Depth: 11/26 00:00:26 3862kN >>>>>14...Ne8 15.Be2 f5 16.g3 Nef6 17.0-0 f4 18.gxf4 Nb8 19.Kg2 Qd7 20.Rh1 >>>>> ± (1.24) Depth: 12/28 00:01:05 10391kN >>>>>14...Ne8 15.Be2 f5 16.g3 Nef6 17.0-0 Qe8 18.Nxa5 Qf7 19.Qb4 Qg6 20.Bb2 Qg5 >>>>> ± (1.26) Depth: 13/30 00:01:49 17863kN >>>>> >>>>>(McCracken, None 17.11.2003) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hiarcs 9 - McCracken,T >>>>>r6k/1r1qnppp/NPp2n1b/2Pp4/3Pp3/1RB1P1PP/R1Q2P2/K4B2 b - - 0 1 >>>>> >>>>>Analysis by Crafty 19.03: >>>>> >>>>>45...Ne8 >>>>> ± (1.36) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 >>>>>45...Nf5 >>>>> ± (1.09) Depth: 1/6 00:00:00 >>>>>45...Nf5 46.Ra5 >>>>> ± (1.39) Depth: 2/6 00:00:00 >>>>>45...Nf5 46.g4 Ne7 >>>>> ± (1.37) Depth: 3/6 00:00:00 >>>>>45...Nf5 46.Nc7 Rxa2+ 47.Kxa2 Kg8 >>>>> +- (1.77) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 >>>>>45...Qf5 46.g4 Qf3 47.Ra5 >>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 >>>>>45...Qf5 46.g4 Qd7 47.Nc7 Rab8 >>>>> +- (1.66) Depth: 5/11 00:00:00 >>>>>45...Qf5 46.Nc7 Rxa2+ 47.Kxa2 Bxe3 48.Ba6 Rxc7 49.fxe3 >>>>> +- (1.90) Depth: 6/14 00:00:00 39kN >>>>>45...Qf5 46.Nc7 Rc8 47.Ba6 Rcxc7 48.bxc7 Rxc7 >>>>> +- (2.51) Depth: 7/15 00:00:01 157kN >>>>>45...Nf5 46.Nc7 Rab8 47.Ra7 Qxc7 48.bxc7 Rxa7+ 49.Kb2 Rxb3+ 50.Kxb3 Rxc7 >>>>> +- (2.48) Depth: 7/15 00:00:01 188kN >>>>>45...Qc8 46.Nc7 Rxa2+ 47.Qxa2 Ne8 48.Nxe8 Qxe8 49.Ba6 Rb8 >>>>> +- (2.33) Depth: 7/15 00:00:02 217kN >>>>>45...Ne8 46.Nb4 Rbb8 47.Rbb2 Rxa2+ 48.Rxa2 Qb7 49.Ra7 >>>>> +- (1.86) Depth: 7/15 00:00:02 265kN >>>>>45...Ne8 46.Nb4 Rbb8 47.Rbb2 Kg8 48.Rxa8 Rxa8+ 49.Ra2 Rb8 >>>>> +- (2.15) Depth: 8/22 00:00:04 419kN >>>>>45...Ne8 46.Nb4 Rbb8 47.Rba3 Rxa3 48.Rxa3 Nf6 49.Ra7 Rb7 >>>>> +- (2.32) Depth: 9/22 00:00:08 1123kN >>>>>45...Ne8 46.Nb4 Rbb8 47.h4 Rxa2+ 48.Kxa2 Qb7 49.Ba6 Ra8 50.Ra3 Qb8 >>>>> +- (2.41) Depth: 10/23 00:00:16 2605kN >>>>>45...Ne8 46.Nb4 Rbb8 47.h4 Kg8 48.Ba6 Nf5 49.Kb1 g6 50.Rab2 Bg7 >>>>> +- (2.46) Depth: 11/24 00:00:32 5642kN >>>>>45...Ne8 46.Nb4 Rbb8 47.h4 Kg8 48.Rba3 Rxa3 49.Rxa3 Qb7 50.Ra7 Ra8 51.Rxa8 Qxa8+ >>>>> +- (2.48) Depth: 12/25 00:01:00 11240kN >>>>>45...Ne8 46.Nb4 Rbb8 47.h4 Kg8 48.Rxa8 Rxa8+ 49.Ba6 Qc8 50.Ra3 Qd8 51.b7 Rb8 >>>>>52.Kb1 >>>>> +- (2.54) Depth: 13/26 00:01:54 22385kN >>>>> >>>>>(McCracken, None 17.11.2003) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Congratulations Dr. Robert Hyatt! >>>>> >>>>>Also, Amir and Shay for being close...maybe Deep Junior 8 would have done >>>>>better?...I can't test it. >>>>> >>>>>Terry >>>> >>>> >>>>Stop licking Hyatts behind, if Crafty was so much better then the commercials at >>>>positional evaluation then it wouldn't be way down on the SSDF list, now would >>>>it?? >>> >>>Maybe I'm misinterpreting the post, but it seems to me that the post was not >>>designed so much to praise Crafty in general as to praise its understanding of >>>the position created in game 3. Based on what I saw from the engines I used to >>>analyze the game while it was in progress, very few of the engines at the top of >>>the SSDF would have handled that position correctly. Besides, the SSDF is not a >>>gauge of positional evaluation skill, rather a gauge of the ability to play >>>games well against other programs. Kasparov is not another engine. Many of the >>>engines with fantastic positional evaluation are slow searchers, so they would >>>be outsearched by their opponents in most situations. However, in a blocked >>>position with few tactical opportunities, positional evaluation becomes >>>extremely important. >> >>No >> >>Shredder is a slow searcher and it outsearch the opponents in most situations. >> >> >>Being a slow searcher does not mean that you are outsearched. >>Uri > >I haven't seen Shredder outsearch opponents depth-wise on my systems, it is >often one or two plies more shallow on the average. It still wins, though, since >it has a better positional understanding which means that deeper depth is not >always necessary. > >Matt Let compare After h4 a5 Shredder get depth 15 in less than 2 minutes on P850. fasters searchers like Fritz or Crafty need more time New game rnbqkbnr/1ppppppp/8/p7/7P/8/PPPPPPP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Shredder 7.04: 1.d4 ² (0.54) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 1.d4 ² (0.54) Depth: 1/1 00:00:00 1.d4 Nf6 = (-0.07) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.d4 e6 = (-0.07) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.Nc3 e6 = (-0.05) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.Nc3 e6 = (-0.05) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.e3 e5 = (-0.01) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.e3 e5 = (-0.01) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.Nf3 d6 = (0.01) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.Nf3 d6 = (0.01) Depth: 2/4 00:00:00 1.Nf3 e6 2.d4 ² (0.36) Depth: 3/4 00:00:00 1.Nf3 e6 2.e4 ² (0.45) Depth: 3/4 00:00:00 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 ² (0.49) Depth: 3/4 00:00:00 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 ² (0.50) Depth: 3/4 00:00:00 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 = (0.16) Depth: 4/5 00:00:00 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 Nf6 = (-0.06) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 1.Nf3 e5 = (-0.05) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 1.Nf3 d6 2.d3 Nc6 = (0.03) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 1.e3 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 = (0.04) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 1.e3 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 = (0.04) Depth: 4/8 00:00:00 1.e3 d6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 ² (0.29) Depth: 5/8 00:00:00 1.e3 e6 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 ² (0.43) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d3 e6 3.Bg5 ² (0.44) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 1.Nf3 e6 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.e3 ² (0.47) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 1.Nc3 d6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d3 ² (0.48) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 1.Nc3 d6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d3 ² (0.48) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 1.Nc3 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.e4 = (0.23) Depth: 6/11 00:00:00 6kN 1.Nc3 Nc6 2.e3 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 = (0.08) Depth: 6/13 00:00:00 11kN 1.Nc3 Nc6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d3 d6 4.Bf4 ² (0.33) Depth: 7/13 00:00:00 19kN 1.Nc3 Nc6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d3 d6 4.Bf4 ² (0.33) Depth: 7/13 00:00:00 20kN 1.Nc3 Nc6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 d5 4.Bf4 Bf5 = (0.09) Depth: 8/14 00:00:00 49kN 1.Nc3 Nc6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 d6 4.e3 Bf5 5.Bc4 = (0.25) Depth: 9/17 00:00:01 125kN 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 e6 4.Bf4 ² (0.26) Depth: 9/17 00:00:01 141kN 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 d6 3.e4 Nxe4 4.Qd2 Nxd2 ² (0.26) Depth: 9/18 00:00:01 153kN 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.e3 Bg4 4.Bb5+ c6 5.Bxc6+ bxc6 6.Ne5 Bxd1 = (0.11) Depth: 10/21 00:00:02 257kN 1.Nc3 Nc6 2.Nf3 e5 3.d4 Bb4 = (0.12) Depth: 10/23 00:00:02 295kN 1.Nc3 Nf6 2.e4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5 4.d4 h5 = (0.14) Depth: 10/23 00:00:02 341kN 1.Nc3 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Bf4 Bg4 5.e3 Bxf3 6.gxf3 e6 ² (0.26) Depth: 11/23 00:00:05 856kN 1.Nc3 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.d4 Nc6 4.Bf4 Bf5 5.e3 e6 6.Bb5 Bb4 = (0.16) Depth: 12/24 00:00:09 1333kN 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 d5 3.Bf4 Bg4 4.Nc3 Bxf3 5.gxf3 e5 = (0.17) Depth: 12/24 00:00:12 1830kN 1.Nf3 Nc6 2.d4 d5 3.Bf4 Bg4 4.Nc3 e6 5.e3 Bb4 6.Bd3 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Bxf3 = (0.17) Depth: 12/24 00:00:13 2031kN 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.e3 Bg4 5.Bb5 e6 6.Nc3 Bb4 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 = (0.18) Depth: 12/24 00:00:16 2534kN 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Bg4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Bd7 5.Ne4 dxe4 6.fxe4 = (0.18) Depth: 12/24 00:00:18 2759kN 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 Bf5 4.Bd3 Bxd3 5.cxd3 e6 6.Nf3 Be7 7.0-0 0-0 = (0.18) Depth: 13/26 00:00:28 4324kN 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Bg4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 Bd7 5.e4 e6 6.e5 Nh5 7.Bg5 = (0.19) Depth: 14/30 00:00:54 8425kN 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 e6 4.e3 Bd6 5.Bxd6 Qxd6 6.c4 0-0 7.c5 Qd8 8.Bd3 = (0.09) Depth: 15/31 00:01:37 15021kN (, eim 20.11.2003) New game rnbqkbnr/1ppppppp/8/p7/7P/8/PPPPPPP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 8: 1.e4 d5 2.e5 Nh6 3.Ne2 d4 4.Na3 = (0.06) Depth: 7/19 00:00:00 40kN 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.Nc3 Nb4 4.a3 N4c6 = (0.09) Depth: 8/24 00:00:00 133kN 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd7 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nge2 Nc6 = (0.00) Depth: 9/27 00:00:00 302kN 1.Nf3! = (0.03) Depth: 9/27 00:00:00 310kN 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 d5 3.Bf4 Bf5 4.e3 Nbd7 5.Bd3 Be4 = (0.03) Depth: 10/30 00:00:01 426kN 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.d4 d5 3.Bf4 Bf5 4.e3 e6 5.Bb5+ Nbd7 6.0-0 Be4 = (0.03) Depth: 11/28 00:00:02 798kN 1.e4! = (0.06) Depth: 11/28 00:00:03 1253kN 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.Bb5+ Bd7 5.Bc4 Nb6 6.Bd3 Nc6 7.Nf3 = (0.00) Depth: 12/36 00:00:13 4997kN 1.Nf3! = (0.03) Depth: 12/36 00:00:15 5741kN 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Bf5 3.Bf4 e6 4.e3 Nd7 5.Nbd2 Ngf6 6.Bb5 c6 7.Be2 = (0.00) Depth: 13/34 00:00:30 11038kN 1.e4! = (0.03) Depth: 13/34 00:00:34 12736kN 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.d4 Nxd5 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.Bb5+ c6 6.Bd3 Nd7 7.a3 N7f6 = (-0.03) Depth: 14/37 00:01:15 29143kN 1.Nf3! = (0.00) Depth: 14/37 00:01:16 29582kN 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.h5 a4 5.h6 a3 6.hxg7 Bxg7 7.b3 c6 8.Nb1 = (0.00) Depth: 15/45 00:02:43 62434kN (, eim 20.11.2003) New game rnbqkbnr/1ppppppp/8/p7/7P/8/PPPPPPP1/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Crafty 19.01: 1.e4 = (0.25) Depth: 1/3 00:00:00 1.e4 d5 = (-0.19) Depth: 2/3 00:00:00 1.e4 d5 2.Nc3 dxe4 3.Nxe4 = (0.05) Depth: 3/5 00:00:00 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 = (0.11) Depth: 3/5 00:00:00 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 = (-0.19) Depth: 4/9 00:00:00 1.e4 d5 2.Bb5+ c6 3.Bd3 = (-0.17) Depth: 4/9 00:00:00 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.d4 = (0.03) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 1.e3 d5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 = (0.08) Depth: 5/10 00:00:00 1.e3 Nc6 2.d4 d6 3.Nf3 Nf6 = (-0.20) Depth: 6/13 00:00:00 18kN 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nc3 e5 3.Nf3 Nf6 = (-0.19) Depth: 6/13 00:00:00 25kN 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qe5+ 4.Qe2 Nc6 5.Qxe5 Nxe5 = (-0.05) Depth: 7/15 00:00:00 76kN 1.e3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nf3 Bf5 4.Nbd2 = (0.00) Depth: 7/15 00:00:00 102kN 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.Bf4 = (0.05) Depth: 7/15 00:00:00 134kN 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.Bf4 Nbd7 = (-0.20) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 197kN 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e5 Ng4 4.d4 d5 = (-0.10) Depth: 8/22 00:00:01 388kN 1.e4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e5 Ne4 5.d4 Nxc3 6.bxc3 = (0.01) Depth: 9/22 00:00:04 1100kN 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 = (0.03) Depth: 9/22 00:00:05 1535kN 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bf4 d6 3.Nf3 Bf5 4.Nc3 Nbd7 5.e3 e6 = (-0.18) Depth: 10/24 00:00:07 2268kN 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.exd5 exd5 5.Qe2+ Be7 6.Nf3 = (-0.09) Depth: 10/24 00:00:13 4151kN 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nc3 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.d4 = (0.01) Depth: 11/26 00:00:23 7352kN 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 d5 4.e5 Ne4 5.Bb5 e6 6.d3 Nxc3 7.bxc3 = (-0.10) Depth: 12/30 00:00:49 15567kN 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Bxd7+ Qxd7 5.c4 c6 6.dxc6 Nxc6 7.Na3 Rd8 8.Nf3 e6 = (-0.01) Depth: 13/30 00:02:30 48633kN (, eim 20.11.2003)
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