Author: enrico carrisco
Date: 13:14:25 11/21/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 21, 2003 at 10:30:21, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On November 21, 2003 at 05:59:05, Amir Ban wrote: > >>On November 20, 2003 at 23:23:16, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On November 20, 2003 at 14:23:10, Amir Ban wrote: >>> >>>>On November 20, 2003 at 08:59:25, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 20, 2003 at 06:57:30, Amir Ban wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 18:12:12, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 17:30:36, Amir Ban wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 12:02:56, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 11:51:59, martin fierz wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 11:34:17, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 11:30:37, martin fierz wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 11:06:21, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 10:55:26, martin fierz wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>On November 19, 2003 at 10:31:54, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>here. Makes a _lot_ of sense. And it shows just how "world" aware the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ICCA actually is. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>i don't really want to be involved in this thread, but i can't resist this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>one... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>disclaimer: of course it would be much more sensible to have the championship in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>the US from time to time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>cheapo: so the ICCA does something which is not good for *one* country >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>That's one cheapo that doesn't work. It would be like 2000 years ago holding >>>>>>>>>>>>>gladiator events that discommode only one country, Rome. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>MH >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>of course it works, and you just invite the next follow up cheapo ;-) >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>2000 years ago the romans were perhaps not aware that there was much more to the >>>>>>>>>>>>world than rome. sometimes one gets the feeling that the US citizens are no >>>>>>>>>>>>different in this respect... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Ok, how about holding a world chess championship that only inconviences >>>>>>>>>>>Russians. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I think you get the idea. :) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>MH >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>of course i get the idea! i put a disclaimer on my first post stating clearly >>>>>>>>>>that IMO the championship should be held in the US from time to time, and i >>>>>>>>>>labelled my posts as cheapos :-) >>>>>>>>>>i thought that made it clear enough... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>going back to your comparison with the russians: exactly how many american >>>>>>>>>>programs are in the top 10 of the SSDF list? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The SSDF list only uses consumer-grade technology to test programs. Programs >>>>>>>>>tuned to that limited technology will always top that list. That is why the >>>>>>>>>list is of limited importance. A real WCCC is going to attract high performance >>>>>>>>>projects, not just consumer oriented projects. This is what the New World has >>>>>>>>>always offered. But, Old Worlders have a problem with that I guess. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Do any such New World high performance projects exist ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Crafty can be such a project on practically a moment's notice (I believe). >>>>>>>Other programs are similiarly suited. If the WCCC comes to North America, the >>>>>>>projects will materialize. This was the benefit of limiting the event to every >>>>>>>three years and making it a practical event, length-wise. It provided time for >>>>>>>the husbanding of resources, planning, development and sponsorship along with a >>>>>>>relative rarity that made the event that much more important and compelling (and >>>>>>>thus an easier sell to the people with the expensive resources). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The current cycle with it's awkward timing and extended length, along with it's >>>>>>>persistent location in Europe (not to mention its archaic modus operendi) seems >>>>>>>calculated to favor European commercial interests while excluding projects from >>>>>>>North America. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Perhaps it is the punishment Europeans are determined to mete out to us for the >>>>>>>DB2 triumph, which seems to be universally reviled overseas. EU types are maybe >>>>>>>fed up with the dominance of North American, high-end computer chess projects. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>There's nothing to be fed up with, since the dominance is long gone. >>>>> >>>>>Yes, the ICGA have seen to that by keeping the WCCC out of North America and >>>>>making inconvenient for North Americans to participate. Nicely done, IMO. >>>>> >>>>>>Hong Kong >>>>>>1995 was the swansong. There were 4 of them there, but losing to Fritz, and even >>>>>>before that, in 1992, to Schroeder, underscored that they have lost their >>>>>>advantage and so their reason in life. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>That is a not entirely unreasonable opinion, though still incorrect, IMO. Bob >>>>>addressed the competitive issue in another thread here. There are American >>>>>programs suited to high performance hardware which would have a definite >>>>>advantage, even over your project. Yes? >>>>> >>>> >>>>Sure. There are tens if not hundreds of Americans who would make me look silly >>>>with multi-million $ projects and $10 million hardware. The only thing holding >>>>them back is that they can't afford to go to Europe. >>>> >>>>It has been tested once in a Rebel vs. Crafty match where Crafty was given a 100 >>>>to 1 time advantage. The match was aborted after Rebel won the first game. >>>> >>> >>>How about doing a couple of things: >>> >>>(1) tell the entire story. (a) one game doesn't mean _anything_. (b) Ed >>>played multiple games with crafty and rebel having a _very_ long time for >>>each move. Crafty won. Does that prove anything? Nope, other than the >>>one handicap game was meaningless. >>> >>>(2) I'll be _happy_ to take you on at 100:1 time odds, anything you think >>>you are ready. I'll even put up a wager to make it interesting. I am >>>talking about a match of at least 10 games. Interested? You'd be >>>stupid if you were. Because I wouldn't play _any_ program at that time >>>handicap, including the original Sargon... >>> >> >>You're on. Please suggest format and let's discuss after WCCC. >> >>Amir >> > >Any format is fine by me. 100 minutes to 1. 6000 minutes to 60. Totally >irrelevant to me. I don't have to guess on the outcome here. I don't >believe your program is _that_ much more knowledgable than mine. It is >certainly better tactically. But 100:1 is going to eliminate that tactical >advantage totally and swing it the other way.. You had better have a _bunch_ >of chess knowledge I don't have to beat me. I don't believe _any_ program >has that big an advantage today... > Only one thing Bob. The match will be in Europe on Christmas Day. Will that be a problem? ;) -elc.
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