Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 12:56:08 11/22/03
Go up one level in this thread
On November 22, 2003 at 01:01:35, Peter Kappler wrote: >On November 21, 2003 at 22:03:53, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On November 21, 2003 at 19:11:41, Will Singleton wrote: >> >>>On November 21, 2003 at 18:24:42, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On November 21, 2003 at 18:05:55, Joachim Rang wrote: >>>> >>>>>On November 21, 2003 at 16:47:52, Peter Berger wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>Following recent heated discussions I'd love to do a little testmatch. There are >>>>>>different versions of the challenge online - I chose one that I can kind of >>>>>>simulate myself with slower hardware. >>>>>> >>>>>>Junior 8.0.0.2 will play on a P233MMX, 32 MB RAM. >>>>>>Crafty 19.4 will play on a PIV2.0GHz notebook, 1GHz RAM. >>>>>> >>>>>>Time control will be game in 2 hours with 10 seconds increment/move. The match >>>>>>will be done like older FIDE world championship matches - the first one to win 6 >>>>>>games wins the match, draws won't count. >>>>>> >>>>>>Junior uses 16MB Hash, 3+4 men tablebases, 1MB cache, junior8.ctg. >>>>>>Crafty uses 384MB Hash, 64MB hashp, 3+4 men tablebases, 32MB cache, own book, >>>>>>aware of playing a computer. >>>>>> >>>>>>Compairing setups with Crafty bench (hash 12M, hashp 3M, cache 1M on the slower >>>>>>one) suggests a speed difference factor of about 10.5 in raw nodes per seconds >>>>>>and 11.0 in "SMP time to-ply-measurement" between the two computers. >>>>>>As the Junior Mark doesn't work on the slower one and Junior chooses to search >>>>>>different depths on both in the starting position, I can't really give a number. >>>>>>The difference seems to be slightly lower for Junior though, sth like 9.0 maybe. >>>>>> >>>>>>Saying that the faster computer is about 10 times faster shouldn't be too wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>>That's also clearly an upper-bound for faster hardware Crafty could reasonably >>>>>>come up to compete with against a single-CPU opponent in a current competition >>>>>>on fast computers IMHO - the speedup demands 16 CPUs I guess, and I don't know >>>>>>if Crafty can really scale that well. >>>>>> >>>>>>With this setup Crafty should be the clear favourite I suppose. >>>>>> >>>>>>Crafty won the toss and will have the white pieces in the first game. >>>>>> >>>>>>Peter >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>nice test indeed. I think crafty will win. >>>>> >>>>>regards Joachim >>>> >>>>If it loses I should obviously retire from computer chess due to gross >>>>incompetence. >>> >>>You already have two people (above) who think Junior has a chance to win, so I >>>suppose you should at least start checking the social security balance. Me, I >>>think Crafty will win easily, perhaps 6-0 (not counting draws). >>> >>>Will >> >>I'd expect 5-1 or 6-0 at 10:1 time odds, discounting quite a few draws >>that are expected... >> >>As for who thinks that a 10:1 time odds is not enough, I suspect they have >>not "gotten dirty" by writing something that is serious. 10:1 is quite a >>bonus. 100:1 is even better... >> >>If I couldn't win at 10:1 it would be time to hang it up, IMHO, no matter >>how much or little time I get to spend on it... >> > > >When did the time odds change from 100x to 10x? There are _two_ things going on, which is causing confusion. Amir and I are talking about 100:1 time odds. The match being played on CCC right now is using a 10:1 handicap by using a slow pentium 233 vs a new machine that is about 10x faster. This is just a "proof of concept" to see if 100:1 will be significant or not. > >The SSDF rating list shows Junior ahead by 25 ELO even when Crafty runs on a >machine that is 4x faster. > >Junior 7.0 128MB K6-2 450 MHz 2639 >Crafty 18.12/CB 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2615 > >(My Athlon 1400 is 4.5x faster than my K6-3/450, so I think 4x is about right >for the two machines above.) > >The same rating list shows that Junior 8.0 is 100 pts stronger than Junior 7. I >don't know how much progress Crafty has made since version 18.12, but I would >guess that it's less than 100 pts. > >You'll also likely be facing Junior's tournament opening book - potentially a >huge advantage for Junior. No, the book is _specifically_ eliminated. This is testing speed vs speed, not book vs book which is uninteresting in time odds. If you saw my suggestion for rules, "if either program is -1 or worse out of book, the game is aborted and a new one started with the same colors, to eliminate book traps that should not matter when comparing two engines at time odds." > >Add it all up, and it seems like this could be a tough match even at 10x. If we didn't eliminate the book issue, I would not even try it... I'm not going to waste time preparing some special book when the idea is to compare speed vs knowledge, not book vs book. > >-Peter
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