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Subject: Re: Junior-Crafty hardware user experiment - 2nd game

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 14:40:17 11/24/03

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On November 24, 2003 at 16:38:25, Uri Blass wrote:

>On November 24, 2003 at 16:19:19, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>>On November 24, 2003 at 11:10:42, Uri Blass wrote:
>>
>>>On November 24, 2003 at 09:07:39, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>
>>>>On November 24, 2003 at 07:41:16, Daniel Clausen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On November 23, 2003 at 17:29:28, Peter Berger wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>For information about setup and rules:
>>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?329237
>>>>>
>>>>>I quote from there:
>>>>>
>>>>>"Saying that the faster computer is about 10 times faster shouldn't be too
>>>>>wrong."
>>>>>and
>>>>>"With this setup Crafty should be the clear favourite I suppose."
>>>>>
>>>>>I don't see why Crafty should be the clear favourite here. When I look at the
>>>>>SSDF list, I see the following ratings:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Junior 8.0 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz        2784
>>>>>Crafty 18.12/CB 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz   2615
>>>>>
>>>>>So there's a rating difference of 169 points. A factor of 10 is slightly more
>>>>>than 3 times doubling and if we use 70 points for each doubling (which is the
>>>>>upper limit in my opinion) we get the difference (3*70)-169=41 points.
>>>>>
>>>>>In a match where the first one to reach 6 wins is the winner, that's hardly
>>>>>"clear favourite". It's more like using a dice to decide something. Or am I
>>>>>missing something?
>>>>>
>>>>>Sargon
>>>>
>>>>Yes, he is not using 18.12.  He is using something two years newer.
>>>
>>>newer does not mean better in comp-comp games based on experience with Crafty.
>>>
>>>
>>>Crafty16.19 is the leader of the crafties of the following list
>>>
>>>http://www.digichess.gr/infiniteloop/ratings/NIL2_final.txt
>>
>>I can _guarantee_ you that 16.19 is not better than 19.5, at normal
>>time controls.  I can guarantee you it is significantly worse, in fact.
>>For blitz, I don't know, but then again I don't really care either since
>>we aren't playing blitz matches that count for anything.
>
>19.5 was not tested for that list but the time control was 80+3 on P3 1Ghz(no
>pondering) and 16.19 did better than newer versions(I know also that you do not
>like ponder off but I do not believe that it helped 16.19 relative to other
>versions).
>
>What tests did you do to be sure that 19.5 is better than 16.19 at normal time
>control(Note that I am talking only about comp-comp games and not about
>comp-human games)

I know what changes were made and what bugs were fixed.  19.x has much
more endgame knowledge than 16.19, not to mention a better null-move
search and other things...


>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>It does not prove that Crafty16.19 is really better(not enough games) but it
>>>gives serious doubt if newer Crafty is really better.
>>>
>>>I also remember that Crafty16.xx was the Crafty that beated Rebel in 1 hour per
>>>move.
>>>
>>>It seems that the commercial programs did big step forward from that time when
>>>Crafty did not do it.
>>
>>I haven't seen my results get worse on ICC over the past N years.  Things have
>>(IMHO) remained fairly "steady-state".  Occasionally there is a need for some
>>minor tuning (IE when Gambit Tiger hit the streets) but that was done by many
>>relatively quickly to restore status-quo.
>
>Note that I thought only about games against computers and ICC includes games
>against humans.
>
>Another question to check is if your hardware did not improve more than the
>hardware of the opponents.
>
>Uri

Nope.  My xeon 2.8 is not any faster than many machines running on ICC, and
it is actually slower than quite a few.  There are several dual 3.06 and 3.2ghz
xeons running, not to mention AMD athlon duals...




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