Author: Mike S.
Date: 03:39:16 11/25/03
Go up one level in this thread
Look at this position: [D]rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7 (Black to move) I guess when a GM has white here, he won't let Black escape, no matter who it is. Among computers, that's much different: Some time ago, I ran 72 computer games starting from that position, with various engines againt each other. The conditions were fairly good, mostly 8m+3s on a P3/700. The experiment was published by CSS. Can you guess Black's score? 20%!! Below are the white losses in PGN. Not only freeware engines (but strong one's: Crafty and Yace) have lost to profi engines: Also, Shredder lost with white against Tiger and vice versa, etc. So, as long as engines cannot make at least 98% from that ridiculous position, we need opening books. 150 years human opening experience cannot be replaced by algorithms (yet). The main purpose of opening books is, to offer the *best chess* possible to the user (among other things, like opening research in large books). - For *engine* comparison, when the fans want to "neutralise" other components, usage of predefined opening variants or "neutral" books is very common already, anyway. Currently, I prefer to limit the book depth, as a compromise. Recent Fritz GUI versions have an option for that. I.e., I think it makes sense to give 8 to 12 moves theory support to the engines, but not more. By that, engines have the opportunity to create the early middlegame themselves (which is more interesting to watch than long book variants). In Championships and similar tournaments, complete "packages" consisting of engine + book (and hardware!) compete, and I think that's ok. The engine's abilities in the early opening are very different (more than their general strength differences). I think that Shredder, and maybe also King and Rebel, are especially good when they have to find (early) opening moves of their own, while i.e. Junior seems to be somewhat incapable of that. Results of experiments without books or in FRC positions indicate that. But in classical chess, it's just not state of the art to use no books. So, a competition without books would not make much sense IMO, because most users will of course make use of the opening books which are included. But practise includes compromises :-)) For example, in the Fritz GUI I use only the Fritz 7.ctg for all engines. I don't want to have 17 opening books with hundreds of megabytes each, on my harddrive. No thanks :-) It would be a good idea, to create a good "neutral" book representing common theory, not too deep (i.e. max. 20 plies), to be used by all competitors in a World Championship or in other comparable tournaments. I think "book wins" are not very attractive for the users (=customers), because it's obvious that such a win does not reflect the real engine strength relations. Regards, Mike Scheidl [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.14"] [Round "1.1"] [White "Chess Tiger 14.0"] [Black "Shredder 5.32"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "159"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... d6 8. d5 Nf6 9. e5 dxe5 10. Nxe5 g6 11. Bb5+ Nbd7 12. Qc4 Bg7 13. d6 O-O 14. dxc7 Qe8 15. Qa4 a6 16. Nf3 e5 17. O-O Qe7 18. Be2 Qd6 19. Nb5 Qc6 20. Qa3 Nb6 21. Nc3 e4 22. Nd4 Qxc7 23. Qa5 Ng4 24. Bxg4 Bxg4 25. Be3 Qd8 26. h3 Bxd4 27. Bxd4 Qxd4 28. hxg4 e3 29. Rad1 exf2+ 30. Rxf2 Qe3 31. Rdf1 Rac8 32. Nd1 Qd4 33. c3 Qd8 34. Qb4 Rc6 35. Ne3 Re6 36. Nc2 Re7 37. Qf4 Rfe8 38. Nb4 a5 39. Nc2 Qc8 40. Qg5 Qc7 41. Qxa5 Re5 42. Qb4 Re4 43. Nd4 R8e7 44. Qb5 R4e5 45. Qd3 Nc4 46. Qg3 Qc5 47. a3 Nd6 48. Rf3 Ne4 49. Qf4 Qb6 50. Qc1 Qc7 51. Rh3 Qc4 52. Qf4 f6 53. Rh6 Qa6 54. Rh2 Qb6 55. g3 Re8 56. Kh1 Qd8 57. Kg2 Qd5 58. Kg1 Qc4 59. Rh1 Kh8 60. Rh6 Qa6 61. Kg2 Qb6 62. Qc1 Ng5 63. Qc2 Kg7 64. Rhh1 h6 65. Qf2 Qd6 66. Qf4 Qd8 67. Rh4 Qb6 68. Qf2 Qa6 69. Kg1 Re3 70. Rd1 Qc4 71. Rd2 Re1+ 72. Kh2 R8e4 73. Rc2 R4e3 74. b3 Qd5 75. Qg2 Ne4 76. Rh3 b6 77. Rd2 Qe5 78. Rc2 Qe7 79. Rb2 Ng5 80. Rh4 Rxc3 81. Rf2 Rcc1 82. Rf4 Qxa3 83. Qb7+ Nf7 84. Rf2 Qc5 85. g5 hxg5 86. Rh3 g4 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.14"] [Round "1.1"] [White "Gambit Tiger 2.0"] [Black "Hiarcs 7.32"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "133"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... e6 8. d5 c6 9. dxc6 Nxc6 10. O-O Bc5 11. Bg5 f6 12. Be3 Bxe3 13. Qxe3 Nh6 14. Rad1 O-O 15. Bc4 Qe7 16. Rd2 Ng4 17. Qd3 Nge5 18. Nxe5 fxe5 19. Qe3 Nd4 20. Ne2 b5 21. Bd3 Qc5 22. c3 Nxe2+ 23. Bxe2 Qxe3 24. fxe3 Rxf1+ 25. Kxf1 Rb8 26. c4 bxc4 27. Bxc4 Kf8 28. Rc2 Ke7 29. Bd3 Kd6 30. Rd2 Ke7 31. Rc2 Bb7 32. Rc5 Kd6 33. Ra5 Bc6 34. b3 Ra8 35. Ke2 g6 36. g4 h6 37. h4 Bb7 38. a3 Bc6 39. b4 g5 40. hxg5 hxg5 41. a4 Bb7 42. Kd2 Bc6 43. Bc2 Bb7 44. Bb1 Bc6 45. Kd3 a6 46. Kc3 Bb7 47. Bd3 Rc8+ 48. Kd2 Rc6 49. Be2 Rb6 50. Kc3 Bxe4 51. Rxa6 Rxa6 52. Bxa6 Bf3 53. a5 Bxg4 54. Kd2 Bf5 55. Ke2 Kc7 56. b5 d5 57. b6+ Kb8 58. Kf2 Bc2 59. Bb5 Kb7 60. Be2 d4 61. exd4 exd4 62. Bf3+ Ka6 63. Ke2 Bf5 64. Kd2 g4 65. Bc6 e5 66. Bb5+ Kb7 67. Ke2 Be4 68. Kf2 d3 69. Bd7 Bf3 70. Ke3 e4 71. Be6 g3 72. Bd5+ Kc8 73. Be6+ Kb8 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.15"] [Round "1.2"] [White "Yace 0.99.56"] [Black "Fritz 7"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "117"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... Nc6 8. a3 e6 9. O-O d6 10. Rfe1 a6 11. Rad1 Nf6 12. e5 dxe5 13. dxe5 Nd7 14. Na4 h6 15. Qe4 Qe7 16. b4 Qd8 17. Be3 Ne7 18. Bc4 Nf5 19. Nc5 Bxc5 20. Bxc5 g6 21. Re2 Rb8 22. Ba7 Ra8 23. Be3 a5 24. Bc5 axb4 25. Bxb4 c6 26. Red2 h5 27. Rd3 h4 28. Qg4 Nh6 29. Qh3 Nf5 30. Qg4 Nh6 31. Qh3 Nf5 32. g3 c5 33. Bxc5 Qc7 34. Bb5 Qxc5 35. Bxd7+ Bxd7 36. Rxd7 Qxc2 37. R1d3 Ne7 38. Rd2 Qc6 39. R7d3 Nd5 40. Rb3 b6 41. Rbd3 b5 42. Nd4 Qc7 43. Qg4 Qxe5 44. Re2 Qf6 45. Rf3 Qg7 46. Qe4 Ra4 47. Rd3 O-O 48. Rb2 Rc4 49. Kg2 Rfc8 50. Rbd2 Qf6 51. Qe2 b4 52. Nb5 Qg5 53. Rxd5 exd5 54. Nd6 bxa3 55. Ra2 hxg3 56. hxg3 Rc1 57. Nxc8 Qh6 58. g4 Qh1+ 59. Kg3 Qg1+ 60. Kf4 Qh2+ 61. Ke3 Rxc8 62. Qd1 Qh3+ 63. f3 Rc3+ 64. Kf4 g5+ 65. Kxg5 Rxf3 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.15"] [Round "1.4"] [White "Crafty 18.15"] [Black "Fritz 7"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "117"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... Nc6 8. a3 e6 9. d5 Nce7 10. O-O d6 11. e5 dxe5 12. Nxe5 Nxd5 13. Bb5+ c6 14. Nxc6 bxc6 15. Bxc6+ Bd7 16. Bxd5 Rb8 17. Bf4 Rxb2 18. Bb3 Qb6 19. Qd1 Qb7 20. Na4 Rxb3 21. cxb3 Bc6 22. f3 Nf6 23. Be3 Nd5 24. Bd4 Qc7 25. Qd3 f6 26. Rfe1 Kf7 27. Qe4 e5 28. Rac1 Qb7 29. Nc5 Bxc5 30. Bxc5 Nf4 31. Qe3 a5 32. b4 axb4 33. axb4 Rd8 34. Red1 Bd5 35. Bb6 Rd7 36. Rc2 Be6 37. Rxd7+ Bxd7 38. Bc5 Be6 39. Rc1 Qb5 40. Ra1 Bd5 41. Ra5 Qc4 42. Ra7+ Kg8 43. Qd2 Qb3 44. Ra1 h6 45. Rc1 Bxf3 46. Rf1 Be4 47. Qd8+ Kh7 48. Qd1 Qf7 49. h3 Nxg2 50. Kh2 f5 51. Qe2 Nf4 52. Qe3 Qa2+ 53. Qf2 Qb3 54. Qg3 Qc2+ 55. Qf2 Qd3 56. Be3 Ng2 57. Bxh6 gxh6 58. Qa7+ Kg6 59. Ra1 Bd5 60. Ra6+ Kg5 61. Qb6 Kf4 62. Qf2+ Qf3 63. Qxf3+ Kxf3 64. Rf6 f4 65. Rxh6 Ke2 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.15"] [Round "1.6"] [White "Crafty 18.15"] [Black "Hiarcs 7.32"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "67"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... e6 8. d5 c6 9. dxe6 dxe6 10. O-O Nd7 11. Rad1 b6 12. e5 Qc7 13. Bf4 Nc5 14. Ne4 Nxe4 15. Bxe4 Ne7 16. Qd2 Ba6 17. Qd6 Qxd6 18. exd6 Nd5 19. Rfe1 O-O-O 20. Bg3 Bxd6 21. Bxd6 Rxd6 22. c4 f5 23. Bc2 Bxc4 24. Ne5 Bxa2 25. Nf7 Rhd8 26. b3 Kc7 27. Nxd8 Kxd8 28. Rd2 Kc7 29. Bxf5 Bxb3 30. Bxh7 a5 31. Be4 Nf4 32. Rxd6 Kxd6 33. Re3 a4 34. h4 b5 35. Kh2 b4 36. Rf3 Ne2 37. Rd3+ Bd5 38. Rd2 Nc3 39. Bxd5 exd5 40. Rd4 Kc5 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.15"] [Round "2.1"] [White "Shredder 5.32"] [Black "Chess Tiger 14.0"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "177"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... h6 8. Bc4 e6 9. d5 c6 10. O-O-O Qc7 11. Be3 b5 12. Bb3 a5 13. dxc6 dxc6 14. a3 Nd7 15. g3 b4 16. Bf4 Qb6 17. Na4 Qb5 18. Bc4 Qxa4 19. b3 Qxa3+ 20. Kb1 a4 21. Bc1 axb3 22. Bxa3 bxc2+ 23. Qxc2 Rxa3 24. Rd3 Rxd3 25. Bxd3 Bc5 26. Rd1 Ngf6 27. Ne5 O-O 28. Nxd7 Nxd7 29. Bf1 b3 30. Qb2 Bb6 31. f4 e5 32. Qxb3 Bd4 33. fxe5 Bxe5 34. Kc2 Bf6 35. Be2 Ne5 36. Qa3 Bh3 37. Rd4 c5 38. Ra4 c4 39. Ra8 Rxa8 40. Qxa8+ Kh7 41. Kd2 Be6 42. h4 Nd7 43. Qa7 c3+ 44. Kc2 Be5 45. Qf2 Kg8 46. Bb5 Nf6 47. Qe3 Kh7 48. Qd3 Bg4 49. Ba4 Bh5 50. Qe3 Bg6 51. Bc6 Kh8 52. Bb7 Kg8 53. Qd3 Kh8 54. Qf3 Bh5 55. Qe3 Bg6 56. Bc6 Kg8 57. Qd3 Kh8 58. Qf3 h5 59. Kd3 Kh7 60. Bb7 Kh8 61. Qg2 Kh7 62. Ba8 Ng4 63. Qg1 Kg8 64. Bc6 Bf6 65. Bd5 Be5 66. Qe1 Kf8 67. Bc6 Bf6 68. Bb7 Kg8 69. Qe2 Be5 70. Qf3 Nf6 71. Qe3 Ng4 72. Qg1 Nf6 73. Qe1 Kh7 74. Bc6 Kg8 75. Ba8 Kh7 76. Bb7 Ne8 77. Kc2 Nd6 78. Bd5 f6 79. Bc6 Bf7 80. Qf2 Be6 81. Bd5 Bg4 82. Qg2 Nb5 83. Kd3 Nd6 84. Bb3 f5 85. Bd5 Bd1 86. Qa2 c2 87. Qa3 f4 88. Bb3 fxg3 89. Bxc2 g2 90. Qa7 Bxc2+ 91. Kxc2 Bh2 92. e5 Nf5 93. Qd7 Ne3+ 94. Kd2 Nc4+ 95. Ke2 Nxe5 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.15"] [Round "2.3"] [White "Yace 0.99.56"] [Black "Gambit Tiger 2.0"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "101"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... h6 8. O-O e6 9. d5 Nf6 10. Rad1 a6 11. Bc1 Bb4 12. dxe6 dxe6 13. Bxa6 Qe7 14. Bc4 Bxc3 15. bxc3 O-O 16. e5 Nd5 17. Bxd5 exd5 18. Rxd5 Rxa2 19. Qc4 Ra8 20. Qe4 Bd7 21. Rd3 Bc6 22. Qg4 Bd7 23. Qg3 Kh7 24. c4 Bf5 25. Rb3 c5 26. Nh4 Bxc2 27. Rb2 Be4 28. Re2 Bg6 29. Nxg6 fxg6 30. Qe3 Ra4 31. Qb3 Rb4 32. Qc2 Nc6 33. Re4 b5 34. cxb5 Nd4 35. Qd1 Nxb5 36. Rxb4 cxb4 37. Re1 Qh4 38. Qe2 Nd4 39. Qb2 Qg4 40. h3 Nf3+ 41. Kh1 Qh4 42. Re3 Ng5 43. Kg1 Ne6 44. Rb3 Qe4 45. Bd2 Nf4 46. f3 Qe2 47. Bxf4 Qe1+ 48. Kh2 Rxf4 49. Rd3 Rc4 50. Rd2 Qe3 51. Re2 Qf4+ 52. Kg1 Rc1+ 53. Kf2 Qh4+ 54. g3 Qc4 55. g4 b3 56. e6 Qc5+ 57. Kg3 Rc2 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.15"] [Round "2.4"] [White "Gambit Tiger 2.0"] [Black "Chess Tiger 14.0"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "75"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... h6 8. O-O e6 9. e5 Ne7 10. Qe4 Nbc6 11. a3 d5 12. exd6 cxd6 13. Qf4 a6 14. d5 exd5 15. Be3 g5 16. Qa4 Be6 17. Nd4 Bg7 18. Nce2 O-O 19. f4 gxf4 20. Rxf4 Qd7 21. Qb3 Na5 22. Qc3 Nc4 23. Bd2 Ng6 24. Rf2 Rac8 25. Bc1 Nge5 26. Bf5 Ng4 27. Qg3 h5 28. Bxg4 hxg4 29. b3 Ne5 30. Bb2 Ng6 31. Raf1 Rfe8 32. c3 Rc7 33. Qd3 Ne5 34. Qd2 Nc6 35. c4 dxc4 36. Qg5 Ne5 37. Ng3 Qd8 38. Qh5 c3 39. Ba1 Nf3+ 40. Nxf3 Rc5 41. Nf5 g3 42. Ng5 gxf2+ 43. Rxf2 Rxf5 44. Rxf5 Bd4+ 0-1 [Event "Experiment (A)"] [Site "Wien"] [Date "2002.06.15"] [Round "2.5"] [White "Crafty 18.15"] [Black "Gambit Tiger 2.0"] [Result "0-1"] [SetUp "1"] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3PP3/2NB1N2/PPPBQPPP/R3K2R b KQkq - 0 7"] [PlyCount "107"] [EventDate "2002.??.??"] [Source "Scheidl"] 7... h6 8. O-O e6 9. d5 Nf6 10. dxe6 dxe6 11. e5 Nfd7 12. Rad1 Nc6 13. Na4 Qe7 14. Bb5 Ncb8 15. Bc4 a6 16. Nc3 Nc6 17. Bd3 g6 18. Bf4 Bg7 19. Qe3 Qc5 20. Qxc5 Nxc5 21. h4 b5 22. a3 Bb7 23. Be2 Nd7 24. Rfe1 Ne7 25. a4 b4 26. Na2 Nd5 27. Bg3 Nc5 28. a5 b3 29. cxb3 Nxb3 30. h5 g5 31. Nd4 Nxa5 32. Rc1 Bf8 33. Bd1 O-O-O 34. Be2 Rg8 35. Red1 Nf4 36. Bg4 Bg7 37. Bxf4 gxf4 38. Nxe6 fxe6 39. Bxe6+ Kb8 40. Bxg8 Rxg8 41. Nb4 Re8 42. Nd3 Nc6 43. Nxf4 Nxe5 44. b3 Rg8 45. Kf1 Bf6 46. Nd5 Ng4 47. Rc5 Be5 48. g3 Rf8 49. f4 Bd6 50. Rc3 Re8 51. Rcd3 Bc5 52. Rc3 Ba7 53. Rd2 Rd8 54. Rxc7 Bxd5 55. Rc3 Ne3+ 56. Ke2 Re8 57. Ra2 Ng4+ 58. Kf1 a5 59. Rd3 Bc6 60. Rdd2 Bb5+ 0-1
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