Computer Chess Club Archives


Search

Terms

Messages

Subject: Re: Why use opening books in machine-machine competitions?

Author: Mig Greengard

Date: 06:29:06 11/25/03

Go up one level in this thread


On November 25, 2003 at 08:36:03, Omid David Tabibi wrote:

>Nunn positions are by no means equal. They are balanced, from the average point
>of view. But even humans will prefer to play one side or another in Nunn
>positions, not any given side.

My point is not which positions in particular, just balloted to avoid the need
for human interference with the book, or avoid a book at all. Of course there
would be a preference but as long as they are all acceptably balanced and random
that would be fine. 200 approved positions, for example.

>>Otherwise it seems to me that you
>>just try to cover up the weaknesses of your program by tweaking the book to
>>avoid the positions it doesn't handle.
>
>Exactly, like humans do. As a human, when you don't like playing against French
>for example, you choose 1.d4. To "cover up your weakness" in that opening. Each
>program has a style of its own, and I don't see any problem in trying to avoid
>uncomfortable positions.

That means you are in favor of humans-as-chessplayers helping the machine, not
only humans-as-programmers. I recognize that comps aren't yet ready to play
without books, but the current state of heavy influence by a team, usually with
GMs, on picking the openings - even for each game - is moving away from
programming a computer to play chess.

Having a significant percentage of decisive games in Graz, for example, decided
in the opening books would be a shame and a major waste of time in my opinion.
It's only marginally less silly in man-machine. When I test an engine I don't
even bother with the opening book. It's just a distraction from how well it
evaluates positions and finds tactics.

>>And that should be contrary to the goal
>>of making a good chessplaying machine.
>
>BTW, assume we ban the use of opening books. How are you going to enforce that
>rule?! You don't let me have an opening book file, fine, I will create an
>in-built book within the engine. There is no way you can stop that from
>happening.

This is very much a separate issue, and one I mention in my original message. I
doubt a technical solution is impossible. For now I'm interested in the
theoretical argument in favor of books, since they continue to be used
enthusiastically. Are they just a necessary evil? Or does everyone think they
can use it to their advantage? Is there no movement to abolish them or limit
them?



This page took 0 seconds to execute

Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700

Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.