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Subject: Re: when is a clone a clone?

Author: Peter Fendrich

Date: 04:50:31 11/28/03

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On November 28, 2003 at 06:12:43, Odd Gunnar Malin wrote:

>On November 28, 2003 at 05:00:49, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>just a short question:
>>
>>if i rip assembler stuff like popcount and firstone from the crafty source, but
>>the rest of my program is entirely different, am i doing something wrong?
>>
>>if i use the kogge-stone floodfill algorithms posted here by steffan westcott,
>>am i doing something wrong?
>>
>
>As soon as you start copying code from another source I think it is cheating if
>you want to participate in a competition with your program.
>
>>how much foreign code is allowed?
>
>None.

That is impossible to prove and not a practical standpoint in this issue.
How can you ever know if the statement:
for (i=0; i<64; i++)
is a copy or not?

In some sence it is a copy from a lecture where I just changed from 10 to 64.

/Peter

>>
>>cheers
>>  martin
>>
>>PS: i use a table-based popcount, not crafty's assembly code. i use a modified
>>version of crafty's lastone. i don't use steffan's floodfill code, but i plan to
>>give it a try.
>
>This is not cheating because here you have learned an idea you want to test it
>yourself.
>
>There is a difference in what you want to do with your program.
>- If it is a private app. you can do what you want (no one can check).
>- If you want your app. to be public you have to get permision from the author.
>- If you want to participate in a public tournament you have to write it all
>yourself or add the orgin to your team (with permission).
>
>Some borderlines:
>- Fritz's (or others) booklearning code. In a tournament this isn't of any help
>but as soon as the competition is match play then the author of the code is also
>part of the team and the tournament rule decide if more than one engine can use
>it. ( I have to add that CB probably learned some of the learningcode from Hyatt
>(I think it was mention here a year back), but this is an article in a paper
>(ICCA) and not copying of codes.)
>- Nalimov's egtb code. Here too is he part of the team so if the tourney only
>allow an author to participate with one entry, only one entry should use his
>code.
>- Opening book, same as for the egtb code.
>
>The extreme case that someone seems to not think of as a clone is to start with
>tscp or gerbil and modify it.
>I think even when you have modified all the code you should still not be allowed
>in a tournament without the orgin's permission and added to the team.
>Basicly here you add a startrating of 1600-2000 for your engine in contrast with
>one who start from scratch where the engine would be below 1000 the first tries.
>
>BUT it is allowed to look into other code when you are learning, or hunting for
>ideas. This is probably the cause that the code is open.
>If you draw similarities with normal chess, you study theory books (papers)
>before a tournament and in some variants you want to look into other sourcecode
>(games) to see how this works in a real game. What you aren't allowed to is to
>bring with you these books and games when you write your own code (play your
>game).
>
>I would have wanted that authors that release the sourcecode had spend a litle
>time to write some pseudo code instead to show the unique idea and publish this
>instead of the code. This would have forced people to learn the code and test it
>througout before they can use it.
>
>Bruce Morland's site is an excellent sample of this. If you still don't
>understand his ideas after reading it several times you can take a peep at a
>sourcecode where the ideas are implemented.
>
>Another sample could be the three-four line Hyatt added after the booklearning
>stuff in ICCA 1, 1999 about positional learning. These few lines of words are
>all you need to implement positional learning into your engine.
>
>Odd Gunnar



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