Author: Johan de Koning
Date: 00:18:19 12/06/03
Go up one level in this thread
On December 05, 2003 at 16:35:33, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On December 05, 2003 at 03:14:40, Johan de Koning wrote: > >>On December 04, 2003 at 09:58:18, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On December 04, 2003 at 00:25:34, Johan de Koning wrote: >>> >>>>On December 02, 2003 at 10:13:36, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 02, 2003 at 01:10:24, Johan de Koning wrote: >>>> >>>>>>I know you know the I in ICGA and the W in WCCC. >>>>> >>>>>Yes. "I" somehow equates to "European".. >>>>> >>>>>This organization is _really_ the ECGA, not the ICGA. And the WCCC is really >>>>>the ECCC. World events are held all over the world. Continental events are >>>>>held on a specific continent. >>>>> >>>>>>And I hope you know that 98% of this world's population does not care about >>>>>>TG-day, nor about I-day, nor about Halloween, nor about UAb classes. >>>>> >>>>>This isn't about "UAB classes". It is about taking off for 1.5 weeks from >>>>>_any_ job, spending a lot of money to trave, for room and food, and doing >>>>>it _every_ year/ every 3 years, since these events are _never_ held outside >>>>>Europe. There are other continents on this planet. But my stand here is well >>>>>known and won't change anything, except that something will come along to >>>>>replace ECGA with something containing a real I.. even if I means Internet. >>>> >>>>So you can't/wantn't invest the time, the energy, and the money. >>>>That's understandable, but it applies to everyone around the globe. >>>>(Particularly to those with real jobs. :-) >>> >>>I daresay mine is just as "real" as any other. I'm in my office at 8am >>>M-F. I often leave by 7pm. :) >>> >>> >>>> >>>>Since North America is a big continent, it also applies to anyone >>>>living there at one end and playing at the other end. In that regard >>>>there's little difference between for example Boston, LA, Vancouver >>>>and Tokyo, Sydney, Johannesburg. >>> >>>You miss my main point. The following are the reasons I can not attend >>>a WCCC/WMCCC event. >>> >>>1. Time. The things take over a week. Old ACM and WCCC events thru the >>>early 1990's took a weekend + 2-3 weekdays. That's a big difference from >>>1.5 weeks. >>> >>>2. Cost. (1) makes (2) quite high. 3-4 nights in a NYC hotel is not cheap. >>>8-9 nights is a lot more "not cheap". Factor in food. I can fly from the east >>>coast of the US to the west coast for $100-$200 if I plan well. Multiply by >>>10 to travel to Europe. >>> >>>3. The other points are just annoying. IE I would _never_ attend an >>>event over Christmas or Thanksgiving. Most any other holiday I would work >>>around. But the priority of holidays (IE July 4 in the current discussion) >>>is _tiny_ compared to (1), and eventually (2). >>> >>>(1) _could_ be fixed. Why we need 11 rounds with 16 participants is beyond >>>my reasoning. And if we really do, why the first 4-5 couldn't be done before >>>the event, on ICC, is also beyond my reasoning. It could cut 1.5 weeks to 3-4 >>>days easily. But apparently there is some interest in keeping these things >>>"long". What that is is beyond me.. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>There are of course cultural problems. Some people in some places >>>>do not fluently speak your native language. Not to mention different >>>>foods, different holidays, different ethics on recrational chemicals, >>>>recreational weapons, and recreational driving (a panic break on "die >>>>Autobahn" cost me to tyres). But again, these problems apply to everyone >>>>around the globe. >>>> >>> >>> >>>I've driven on the Autobahn. I don't consider that an issue, other than >>>most maniacs seem to collect there. :) I don't have any cultural issues >>>that prevent me from traveling. I've been to many places. Japan, China, >>>former USSR, London, Paris, Stockholm, Berlin, Amsterdam, and probably a >>>few places I missed (totally ignoring North America / South America of >>>course). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>The bottom line is that you have to choose your excuses carefully. >>>>An interesting optimization problem is to pick more then one excuse >>>>without offending the rest of the world. >>> >>> >>>My primary reason has _always_ been "time". 1.5 weeks is simply not managable. >>>Would you like to sign up for a course in (say) computer architecture or >>>operating systems or parallel programming or assembly language programming, >>>and discover that your instructor disappears for two straight weeks? It just >>>isn't reasonable. It never was reasonable. If you look at early ACM/WCCC >>>events, they were 4-5 rounds. The reason was to keep the event short so that >>>people could actually attend without wrecking their jobs... >>> >>>Cost is certainly a second-level issue. >>> >>>Holidays is mostly "noise". I have some constraints I personally impose. IE >>>no travel on Thanksgiving or Christmas. I've traveled on other holidays with >>>no real problem. >>> >>>So don't lock on to the "holiday" as "the deal breaker". The length of the >>>event (for me) is the deal breaker. Combined with the cost, and it is just >>>untenable. >> >>Judging from the last 14 lines, I did *not* miss your main point. >>I just comressed it to 3 lines and managed to squeeze in a joke >>about chess programming not being a job. >> >>So let's stick to this and skip European conspiracies, attacks by >>freedom fighters, moronic TDs, culturally challenged organizers, >>optimistic charters from 1977, and NYC hotel rates (which do not >>apply to Europe anyway :-). >> >>Then the question that remains is: do we prefer a 5-round / 3-day >>event? Or would we like one long week event including a conference >>and non-chess games *once* per year? With still plenty of time to >>sleep, eat, drink, prepare, and most of all, meet others. After all >>informal contacts are the point of IRL events for global communities. >> >>Obviously I'm biased here, since for most part of the year my agenda >>is empty and my bank account isn't. :-) But the usual July or August >>should be convenient for academics. > >Note that that is an invalid assumption. I teach year-round. and, in >fact, leaving during the Summer is even more difficult as the semesters >are compressed into 12 weeks. Missing 2 weeks turns this into a 1/6 >missed classes rather than 1/8. Though I can't quite reconstruct the math here, it seems that being tied for at least 51 weeks/year is not a good thing. Perhaps UAb's scheduling sucks, or you're taking part of your job too seriously. In either case you have my sympathy (I'm not being sarcastice here). I could make a lame remark about students being better of with less summer classes, but I'll refrain (here I *am* being sarcastic :-). >> Still amateurs with jobs and few >>holidays have reason to complain, but they rarely choose to do so. >> >>... Johan > >You weren't around back then, but the very reason the ACM events were 4 (and >later 5) rounds was for that very reason. It made it more affordable for >everyone, this before there were professional computer chess >programs/programmers. The WCCCs through 1989 were 5 rounds for that same >reason. Somehow that has gotten "lost" over the past 10 years. Yes, the >WMCCC events were longer, but if you look at early history, they were >essentially all commercial anyway with big entry fees. Well, as I said it is a matter of trade off. Considering that planning, preparing, organizing, and traveling is a large part of any event (depending on your lifestyle of course), you get more bang for your sweat in a 9-day event than in a 3-day event. ... Johan
This page took 0.02 seconds to execute
Last modified: Thu, 15 Apr 21 08:11:13 -0700
Current Computer Chess Club Forums at Talkchess. This site by Sean Mintz.