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Subject: Re: Shredder wins in Graz after controversy

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 19:38:56 12/12/03

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On December 12, 2003 at 13:12:46, Sandro Necchi wrote:

>On December 12, 2003 at 10:35:00, Anthony Cozzie wrote:
>
>>On December 11, 2003 at 13:20:29, Sandro Necchi wrote:
>>
>>>Robert,
>>>
>>>I think it is not the case to continuo. I will stay on my ideas as you are going
>>>to stay on yours.
>>>
>>>I am interested on winning games on the board and not in the forum.
>>>
>>>I am sorry, but I do trust more Darse than you, as well as the TD in Graz.
>>>
>>>I only hope that in future the programmers will agree to stop the games when the
>>>score is not lower than -10 to avoid "ridiculus".
>>>
>>>By being a chess player I find to continuo playing "extremely lost games"
>>>offensive and not useful at all to show how strong the chess programs have
>>>become.
>>>
>>>I am saying this here now to avoid someone would link this to Shredder games.
>>>
>>>I am a true chess and computer chess lover and hate to see non senses like
>>>playing extremely lost positions.
>>>
>>>How can a programmer be proud of not losing or winning a game extremely lost?
>>>
>>>Does it makes sense a statement like "well, this year my program did score very
>>>well as we scored 5 out of 8 while last year I scored 0. The first game it went
>>>down -12, but the opponent had a bug and we could win the game. The second one
>>>the opponent had a mate in 12, but a bug made the program lose 3 pieces and we
>>>won. The third game we won with 3 pieces less because the opponent program got a
>>>bug that removed all the hashtables use and so on..."
>>>
>>>Wow there is a lot to be proud!
>>>
>>>I am clearly exagerrating, but it seems for some people this would be
>>>acceptable...
>>>
>>>???????????????????????
>>>I will never understand this!
>>>
>>>Sandro
>
>Hi,
>>
>>As a human, I get annoyed when people continue when they are down a rook or
>>more.  I get _really_ annoyed when they beat me anyway :)  And I can see your
>>point, its something of an insult: the other player is saying that they can win
>>even though they have a horribly lost position.
>>
>>However, computer-computer games are different IMHO.  Computers don't have egos.
>> They never get tired.  Why not let it go all the way to checkmate?
>
>I was not referring to 2003 WCCC, but I was proposing something for the next
>tournaments.
>
>My point is:
>
>1. Since the programs now are much stronger than 20 years ago, why not change
>the rule about resigning and let them resing when they are down -10?

I don't understand the request.  A program has _always_ been able to resign
on its own, at any point it chooses.  The operator is more limited in what
he can do.  But if a program says "I resign" then the TD has always accepted
that at any event I have played in.  If I wanted to resign for my program (I
have not had to do that since mine has self-resigned for years) I had to clear
it with the TD.  But not if the program made the choice.

However, it seems you want to _force_ this to be the policy, and I don't agree
with that, particularly with sudden-death time controls.

>2. It is true that a bug may help the program which is lost, but which are the
>chances today? Is it correct to say 1 every 1000? If this is true, why not
>concentrate to improve their play on the first part of the game rather then
>hoping to be extremely lucky in the endgame?
>
>Yes, it is true that they do not get tired, but the people watching these games
>do and they would switch to another game as that is of no interest anymore when
>the advantage is so high.
>This is what I do and I do believe I am not the only one.
>I guess we all want to have more people attracted by chess and chess programs,
>so why not give them something they would prefer?
>
>This is only a proposal for the next tournaments, to make them more attractive
>for the real chess players.
>
>Sandro
>
>>Do you
>>think you deserve to win if your program can't play a simple mate in 8?
>>
>>anthony



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