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Subject: Re: Technical question regarding interface for CCT

Author: Omid David Tabibi

Date: 14:47:43 12/14/03

Go up one level in this thread


On December 14, 2003 at 17:39:43, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On December 14, 2003 at 17:08:18, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>
>>On December 14, 2003 at 16:57:26, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On December 14, 2003 at 09:13:12, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>
>>>>On December 14, 2003 at 08:52:57, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On December 14, 2003 at 07:17:13, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On December 14, 2003 at 00:02:46, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On December 13, 2003 at 19:15:00, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On December 13, 2003 at 19:02:23, Sune Fischer wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On December 13, 2003 at 18:29:42, Omid David Tabibi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On December 13, 2003 at 18:12:17, Russell Reagan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On December 13, 2003 at 05:31:25, Amir Ban wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Well, if without Chessbase engines you'll have a better event and make progress,
>>>>>>>>>>>>I won't stand in your way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Your statement sounds like the people who tried to hold on to DOS too long when
>>>>>>>>>>>Windows (and other multitasking operating systems) were clearly the future.
>>>>>>>>>>>"Well, if without real mode you'll have better programs and make progress, I
>>>>>>>>>>>won't stand in your way." You don't hear too many of those people these days. Is
>>>>>>>>>>>Ed Schröder the only one left? :) Clearly, multiuser and multitasking operating
>>>>>>>>>>>systems are progress over DOS.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>45 participants is a heck of a lot more than 14. If there are 40 participants
>>>>>>>>>>>instead, that's still a heck of a lot more than 14, with plenty of strong
>>>>>>>>>>>competition. If we had this kind of participation along with the Chessbase
>>>>>>>>>>>engines, that would be great, but I'll take 40+ participants with no Chessbase
>>>>>>>>>>>participants over 14 including Chessbase participants.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>What was the average rating in Graz? What is the average rating in CCT?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>By this logic the tournament would have been even better with only Shredder,
>>>>>>>>>Junior and Fritz.
>>>>>>>>>The others just dragged down the rating, obviously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>OK, let me put it this way: how many top programs participated in Graz? How many
>>>>>>>>will participate in CCT?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Having a chess championship without Junior/Fritz/Shredder is like having a
>>>>>>>>football worldcup without Brazil, Italy, Germany, England... (and if like CCT
>>>>>>>>you don't have any "drug tests", then Argentina will easily win, thanks to
>>>>>>>>Maradona :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>If quantity is the only important factor for you, then you can take 100 free
>>>>>>>>>>winboard engines, run a tournament on your computer, and crown the winner with
>>>>>>>>>>the world champion title.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Quantity is important, quantity means support, interest and recognition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Where was Tiger, where was Rebel, Ruffian, SmarThink, Crafty, Yace... in your
>>>>>>>>>little shootout?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Had they thought they had any chance to win the championship, they would have
>>>>>>>>shown up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That statement is so far beyond stupid...  it really doesn't deserve a
>>>>>>>response.  Drop over to ICC tonight or tomorrow night, try the quad opteron
>>>>>>>Crafty on for size in a game or two.  Then come back and make that statement.
>>>>>>>It's been hitting 9M+ nodes per second and is _not_ a pushover.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Brutus has been hitting 20M+ nodes per second in Graz, so what?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I could
>>>>>>>probably have shown up with a 16-way machine at the very least.  Do you _really_
>>>>>>>think it would have no chance?  :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It is up to you to think about your chances. Had you thought you had real
>>>>>>chances, you would have shown up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Again, Brutus had a far better evaluation than Crafty, far better search, and
>>>>>>far better nps, and it only ended 4th.
>>>>>
>>>>>How do you know that brutus had better evaluation
>>>>
>>>>?!?
>>>>I saw the evaluations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>and better search than crafty?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Search depth, branching factor... Crafty's search and evaluation hasn't changed
>>>>much in the recent years.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On the same hardware, Falcon never scores less than 80% against Crafty, and it
>>>>>>only ended 10th.
>>>>>
>>>>>Did you test against 19.06 and not 19.03?(results that I read suggest that 19.06
>>>>>is an improvement)
>>>>
>>>>How much improvement? 1% speedup? 2% speedup? 5% speedup? But the same search
>>>>and evaluation I guess.
>>>
>>>You should stop guessing.  I _know_.
>>>
>>>What better source than to ask???
>>
>>OK, I'm asking. ?
>
>OK.  19.3 to 19.6 has no speed changes to speak of.  Several evaluation
>bugs were fixed...  Change to search extension starting point.  Etc.

Well, I will give it a try :)



>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Did you test with own books and not with Fritz8.ctg?
>>>>
>>>>I don't think it will matter. You use your own books to direct the engine into
>>>>positions it plays well. Against Crafty, Falcon has no problems in any kind of
>>>>position. (This is not true for Junior for example. In the last test, Falcon
>>>>beat Junior 4.5-1.5, but I don't think this difference of strength will hold
>>>>true if I test Junior using its tournament book.)
>>>
>>>Please feel free to come to ICC and demonstrate such outright and overwhelming
>>>superiority.  Programs like Shredder, Junior, Tiger, etc are _not_ beating me
>>>80% of the time.
>>>
>>>It is much easier to actually run the experiment than to guess...
>>>
>>>I'm always available...
>>>
>>
>>In turn, I would like to invite you to Israel next year, to participate in a
>>real tournament. I'm sure getting the title World Computer Chess Champion will
>>silence any critics.
>
>I have two of 'em in my office, I should point out.  I don't have anything
>to prove there.
>
>I suspect that your visiting ICC will be _far_ cheaper than going to Israel.

Yes, if I manage to get the damned books to work... (currently the Arena book
doesn't support transpositions, and the ChessPartner book plays a large subset
of moves with no way to limit the selection)


>And _neither_ of us has to miss any work or classes.

If it is so critical for you not to miss any classes, can't you find a
replacement for one or two lessons? When coming to Graz I had to cancel one
lesson in an Algorithms course I teach, but instead I asked someone to replace
me in that lesson.


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>>>>>Uri



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