Author: James T. Walker
Date: 08:47:28 12/19/03
Go up one level in this thread
On December 19, 2003 at 00:26:41, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On December 18, 2003 at 16:18:21, James T. Walker wrote: > >>On December 18, 2003 at 16:07:44, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On December 18, 2003 at 15:53:02, James T. Walker wrote: >>> >>>>On December 17, 2003 at 13:20:03, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 13:09:57, Slater Wold wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 10:41:24, Uri Blass wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 10:23:26, Matthew Hull wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 10:21:58, Slater Wold wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 09:35:16, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On December 17, 2003 at 09:05:55, Slater Wold wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I guess I will be running the 100:1 NPS challenge. Here's the info: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>I will use any books.bin & bookc.bin that Bob asks me to. The book.bin will be >>>>>>>>>>>created from enormous.pgn. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>My suggestion is to use book.bin, bookc.bin and books.bin from my ftp >>>>>>>>>>machine. book.bin has no learning data so it will start off in the best >>>>>>>>>>possible way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>remove position.bin before game 1. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>And, as I suggested previously, if, after a program leaves book, it is >>>>>>>>>>in an obviously won or lost position, the game gets aborted and the next >>>>>>>>>>one started. There is no place for "book kills" when the goal is a time >>>>>>>>>>handicap match. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Agreed. The only loss Crafty has suffered in the Rebel match was a book loss. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>BTW, what were the results of that match? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>3.5-1.5 for crafty >>>>>>> >>>>>>>see http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?336433 >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Note that the match is not very interesting for me because it is an open >>>>>>>question if Crafty is better than rebel on equal hardware and in WBEC Crafty has >>>>>>>13/24 when Rebel has only 10/24 >>>>>> >>>>>>There is no doubt in my mind Rebel is better than Crafty on equal hardware. And >>>>>>I've played, oh, about 5,000 games with Rebel. >>>>> >>>>>I would take that wager. We _both_ use quad opterons. >>>>> >>>>>:) >>>>> >>>>>Isn't that "equal" by any reasonable definition? :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>How much better is questionable, but it's obviously not 8x. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>>>The more interesting question is if Rebel is able to get better result than >>>>>>>Crafty in the premier division. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Uri >>>> >>>>;) They are not running on "equal" hardware if one is using 4 cpus and the >>>>other is using only one cpu. I have several hundred blitz games of Crafty 19.7 >>>>vs Rebel 12 on 2 XP2400+ machines/auto232. I call that equal hardware. In that >>>>case Rebel has a slight advantage on Crafty of maybe 30-40 Elo. (According to >>>>the few hundred games so far). >>>>Jim >>> >>> >>>That is a bad definition of "equal hardware". IE if two programs run on a >>>PIV 3.06ghz processor, but one uses SSE and the other doesn't, is _that_ >>>also not equal? Or one uses hyper-threading and the other doesn't? >>> >>>"equal hardware" means "platforms are identical". What a program gets out >>>of those equal platforms is another matter. >>> >>>It takes effort to use that "extra stuff". I played a couple of challenge >>>matches years ago when someone would say "Hey, you are using a Cray, if I >>>had something that fast, I could play equal to or better than you." I had >>>them send me their code, I compiled and we played on the same machine, no >>>pondering, one cpu each. What they overlooked was that I had invested a >>>lot of work getting the vector hardware to help me. They hadn't. So on >>>"equal hardware" I was 20x faster than they were and the match was not >>>that pretty. >>> >>>Doing a parallel search takes time. Does it seem reasonable that my opponent >>>uses an extra year to improve his evaluation, while I use an extra year to get >>>a good parallel search done, then we say "your parallel search is an unfair >>>adevantage?" >>> >>>It's a different way of thinking about it when you think about it. Those >>>extra CPUs don't just magically make the program faster without a _lot_ of >>>design effort and programming work. >> >>:) >>There is no denying that you have put in a lot of work on Crafty. I and many >>others really appreciate what you have done. That still does not make 1=4. I >>wish I had a quad or even a dual to run the "deep" programs on but I don't. >>Maybe when the price comes down a little I can get something not quite on the >>leading edge that I can afford. In the mean time, for me, 1=1 and 4 is 4x >>larger than 1. :) >>I said a few years ago that Crafty was showing the way for others to go in chess >>because I believed that CPUs have a practical upper limit of Ghz. So eventually >>all will have to go to multiple cpu operation for more speed. >>Again I salute your work but it does not make 1=4. :) >>Happy Hollidays, >>Jim > > >Hint: Hardware equality has _nothing_ to do with software. Nor operating >system. Nor the phase of the moon. Hardware equality can be determined with >_no_ electricity whatsoever. That may be true but "Running on equal hardware" is not the same as haveing equal hardware available. I get your point and I'm sure you get mine so again, Happy Holidays. Jim
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