Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 19:23:31 11/23/98
Go up one level in this thread
On November 23, 1998 at 22:18:09, blass uri wrote: > >On November 23, 1998 at 20:13:16, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On November 23, 1998 at 18:47:20, Amir Ban wrote: >> >>>On November 23, 1998 at 17:14:28, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On November 23, 1998 at 11:50:01, Amir Ban wrote: >>>> >>> >>>>I'm going to try to keep this simple. Here is a point-blank question: if you >>>>really believe that nonsensical statement you wrote above, then how can you >>>>reconcile that with a program that is searching at least 1,000 times faster >>>>than you, yet only gets to depth 10-11 in the game? If they are not extending >>>>far more than you could ever hope to then exactly *what* are they doing with >>>>that factor of 1,000? And remember that they have a pretty simple quiescence >>>>search and they toss out bummer captures as well, so the work is *not* in >>>>looking at zillions of captures. >>> >>>Seems like you misunderstand another side of this, because you are mistaking me >>>for a null-mover. >>> >>>To get to nominal ply 11, I would have to search at least to my (half-ply) depth >>>21. If you've ever seen Junior play, you know that that's a lot for a middlegame >>>position. I'm guessing it will take Junior at least a few days to get there. >>> >>>When I do get to that depth, though, I expect to see much more than Deep Blue >>>sees at its ply 11, because I'm much more heavily extended, and of that, I'm >>>sure. >>> >>>Amir >> >>That's my question, however.. They are *only* getting to ply 11. I can get to >>ply 10 with crafty with null-move *off*. searching under 300K nodes per second. >>So what do you suppose *they* are doing with that factor of 1,000 nodes? Must >>be something *very* serious... IE I saw *Socrates "outsearch" deep thought by >>a ply or two in Cape May (if you look at depth reported on the screen). And >>Deep Blue isn't going any deeper today it seems. So those nodes are going >>*somewhere* and the only place I can figure is extensions... They have always >>been liberal (ie they allow 1 ply of extensions for *every* ply in the search >>if you read their JICCA paper. You can't go beyond that and have a search that >>terminates... and even 1:1 is on the ragged edge... >> >>That was my only point here... that they follow some things *very* deeply. >>I sometimes see 24 ply variations from Crafty on a 12 ply search. But when >>I watched Deep Thought I saw many 30+ ply variations in tactical cases, and >>that doesn't touch the last 4-5 plies + captures that don't get displayed... > >Junior5 also can search very deep at some lines. >I saw Junior5 display a 19 ply variation on ply 6 search(I translate depth 12 of >Junior5 to ply 6 search). > >When Junior complete a 12 ply search(at depth 24) and it can take days it also >calculate 30+ ply variations in tactical cases. > >Uri that I don't doubt.. but I've seen deep thought produce 30+ ply variations in a minute or two... However, a change of pace... someone on ICC tonite said that when they tried the axb5 position on chessmaster 5000, that it liked axb5 after 30 minutes or so on a P5/233mhz. Can someone give this a test to see??? Bob
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