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Subject: Re: The King's News Clothes (Re: DB vs)

Author: blass uri

Date: 20:30:50 11/23/98

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On November 23, 1998 at 22:38:17, Robert Hyatt wrote:



>I'll play that game.  we are talking about a factor of 1,000.  You implied
>this could easily be explained by their not doing null-move or other forward-
>pruning tricks?  That is your explanation?
>
>I'd like to suggest you break out the calculator.  Null move does *not*
>reduce the search by a factor of 1,000.  Not by a factor of 100.  Generally
>not by a factor of 10.  So, I re-ask...  if they are only searching to 10
>plies, *why* does it take them so many nodes to get to ply=10.  Want some
>math?  perfect tree ought to be 2*38^5 moves.  They search that many nodes in
>under 1 second (that is about 160M nodes).  Most agree that current programs
>search within a factor of two of the optimal tree size (references available
>if needed).  so lets say they can fully search this tree in 1 second, even
>assuming imperfect ordering...   Now, again, I'd like to ask the
>*same* question again, and this time get a *reasonable* answer:
>
>
>
>If they take (say) 5 minutes to do a 10 ply search, at 250M+ nodes per second,
>that is over 300X the number of nodes a full-width search to depth=10 should
>search.  If you factor in a q-search that is the same size as the full-width
>part, we have a missing factor of 150 to account for.  I say that is *all*
>search extensions.  And I say that is *far* more than any of the rest of us do
>in terms of extensions.  How *else* would you characterize this?

I think that Junior5 also does search extension because
Junior needs similiar number of nodes to do 10-11 *full* ply search.
I think it can see also long lines of 30+ or even 40 plies with the extensions
but Amir Ban can tell better how many plies Junior can see in the longest
variations after 10-11 *full* ply search.

Uri




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