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Subject: Re: Fine #70 analysis problem w/crafty

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 19:21:15 12/30/03

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On December 30, 2003 at 13:33:57, Michael Henderson wrote:

>
>Crafty v 19.2 gives the following analysis for Fine #70, starting at ply 36:
>
>8/k7/3p4/p2P1p2/P2P1P2/8/8/K7 w - - 0 1
>
>               depth  time   score
>
>               36     1.25   5.17   1. Kb1 Kb7 2. Kc1 Kc7 3. Kd1 Kc8 4.
>                                    Kd2 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke2 Kc7 7. Kf3
>                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 <HT>
>               36->   1.25   5.17   1. Kb1 Kb7 2. Kc1 Kc7 3. Kd1 Kc8 4.
>                                    Kd2 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke2 Kc7 7. Kf3
>                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 <HT>
>               37     1.27     --   1. Kb1
>               37     1.45   4.68   1. Kb1 Kb7 2. Kc1 Kc7 3. Kd1 Kc8 4.
>                                    Kd2 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke2 Kc7 7. Kf3
>                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 Kg7
>                                    14. f5 Kf7 15. f6 Kf8 16. Kg4 Kg8 17.
>                                    Kf4 Kf8 18. Ke4 Ke8 19. Kf5
>               37->   1.45   4.68   1. Kb1 Kb7 2. Kc1 Kc7 3. Kd1 Kc8 4.
>                                    Kd2 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke2 Kc7 7. Kf3
>                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 Kg7
>                                    14. f5 Kf7 15. f6 Kf8 16. Kg4 Kg8 17.
>                                    Kf4 Kf8 18. Ke4 Ke8 19. Kf5
>               38     2.59     ++   1. Kb1!!
>               38    10.26   6.71   1. Kb1 Kb7 2. Kc1 Kb8 3. Kc2 Kb7 4.
>                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
>                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 <HT>
>               38->  10.26   6.71   1. Kb1 Kb7 2. Kc1 Kb8 3. Kc2 Kb7 4.
>                                    Kc3 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke3 Kc7 7. Kf3
>                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 <HT>
>               39    10.49     --   1. Kb1
>
>
>
>I will take the ply 36 analysis to illustrate the specific problem:
>
>               depth  time   score
>
>               36     1.25   5.17   1. Kb1 Kb7 2. Kc1 Kc7 3. Kd1 Kc8 4.
>                                    Kd2 Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke2 Kc7 7. Kf3
>                                    Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>                                    11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5 Kf7 13. Kg5 <HT>
>
>36 plies is more than enough plies to see the winning capture Kxf5.  The key
>
>position is after 4. Kd2.  Black has a choice of playing either Kc7 or Kd7.
>
>Kd7 holds off the winning capture (Kxf5) two more plies than Kc7.  Crafty
>
>wants to play 4. ...Kc7 in the analysis.  Here is the key position FEN:
>
>2k5/8/3p4/p2P1p2/P2P1P2/8/3K4/8 b - - 0 1
>Crafty gives this analysis starting from the position after 4. Kd2
>
>
>               depth  time   score
>
>               36     1:02   7.10   1. ... Kd7 2. Kc3 Kc7 3. Kd3 Kb6 4.
>                                    Ke3 Kc7 5. Kf3 Kd7 6. Kg3 Ke7 7. Kh4
>                                    Kf6 8. Kh5 Kf7 9. Kg5 Kg7 10. Kxf5
>                                    Kf7 11. Ke4 Kf6 12. Kd3 Kf5 13. Kc4
>                                    Kxf4 14. Kb5 Ke4 15. Kxa5 Kxd5 16.
>                                    Kb5 Kxd4 17. a5 d5 18. Kb6 Kd3 19.
>                                    a6
>               36->   1:02   7.10   1. ... Kd7 2. Kc3 Kc7 3. Kd3 Kb6 4.
>                                    Ke3 Kc7 5. Kf3 Kd7 6. Kg3 Ke7 7. Kh4
>                                    Kf6 8. Kh5 Kf7 9. Kg5 Kg7 10. Kxf5
>                                    Kf7 11. Ke4 Kf6 12. Kd3 Kf5 13. Kc4
>                                    Kxf4 14. Kb5 Ke4 15. Kxa5 Kxd5 16.
>                                    Kb5 Kxd4 17. a5 d5 18. Kb6 Kd3 19.
>                                    a6
>
>So, the from Fine #70, crafty gives this line after 4.Kd2:
>
>4. ... Kc7 5. Kd3 Kb7 6. Ke2 Kc7 7. Kf3 Kd7 8. Kg3 Ke7 9. Kh4 Kf6 10. Kh5 Kf7
>
>11. Kg5 Kg7 12. Kxf5
>
>while, starting from the position after 4.Kd2, we are given this line:
>
>4. ... Kd7 5. Kc3 Kc7 6. Kd3 Kb6 7. Ke3 Kc7 8. Kf3 Kd7 9. Kg3 Ke7 10. Kh4 Kf6
>
>11. Kh5 Kf7 12. Kg5 Kg7 13. Kxf5
>
>I would think that black would try to delay the loss two more plies from Fine
>#70 with Kd7, or does it see Kc7 because black will lose anyway?
>
>thx for reading,
>Michael Henderson

The problem with your comment is that it is contrary to the way the program
works.  Any program knows to take a mate in 20 plies over a mate in 24 plies.
But a program will _not_ understand the difference between winning a pawn in
20 plies and 24 plies, and therefore either is considered _exactly_ the same
from the program's alpha/beta search point of view...



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