Author: Brian Katz
Date: 11:27:55 01/01/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 01, 2004 at 12:44:44, George Tsavdaris wrote: >On January 01, 2004 at 11:17:32, Brian Katz wrote: > >>I have found that Fritz 8 (8.0.0.8 and 8.0.0.23)has trouble solving some >>positions that other engines solve in a matter of seconds. Such is the case with >>the recent position: >> >>8/8/K6p/6p1/8/8/k5PP/8 w >> >>Of course Tablebases are needed to find the mate in 29, which is the case with >>Ruffian, Yace and Crafty 19.06. Hiarcs finds it in 30. >> >>Fritz 8.0.0.8 did not find it at all as yet. Fritz 8.0.0.23 just found it as I >>am sending this post after 00:08:26, but it shows mate in 31 instead. >>Once Fritz 8 finds a mate, it seems to end it's search whereas, some other >>engines continue to search and find quicker mates. >> >>Any and all opinions welcomed. >>Brian > > Fritz 8 has no trouble at all to solve this position. On a PIV-1500MHz with >48 MB hash tables and all 3-4 and some 5 piece endgame tablebases it finds the >winning move instantly and shows it is a winning move (+5) in 5 seconds. > > Fritz 8 is not a mate solver, but a chess player, so if it isn't able to >anounce a mate in x, this is not bad. > >Analysis by Fritz 8.00.8: > >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 > = (0.06) Depth: 7/9 00:00:00 2kN, tb=2 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 > = (0.00) Depth: 8/10 00:00:00 4kN, tb=5 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 > = (0.06) Depth: 9/10 00:00:00 7kN, tb=20 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f3 > = (0.00) Depth: 10/12 00:00:00 11kN, tb=42 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f3 >6.Ke5-f5 > = (-0.06) Depth: 11/12 00:00:00 17kN, tb=93 >1.Ka6-b5! > = (-0.03) Depth: 11/14 00:00:00 22kN, tb=102 >1.Ka6-b5! > = (0.13) Depth: 11/14 00:00:00 26kN, tb=111 >1.Ka6-b5 Ka2-b3 2.Kb5-c5 Kb3-c3 3.Kc5-d5 Kc3-d3 4.Kd5-e5 Kd3-e3 5.Ke5-f5 Ke3-f2 >6.g2-g4 Kf2-f3 7.h2-h3 > = (0.03) Depth: 12/15 00:00:00 42kN, tb=196 >1.Ka6-b5 Ka2-b3 2.Kb5-c5 Kb3-c3 3.Kc5-d5 Kc3-d3 4.Kd5-e5 Kd3-e3 5.g2-g4 Ke3-f2 >6.Ke5-f6 Kf2-f3 7.h2-h3 > = (-0.03) Depth: 13/17 00:00:00 60kN, tb=340 >1.Ka6-b5 Ka2-b2 2.Kb5-c5 Kb2-c2 3.Kc5-d5 Kc2-d2 4.Kd5-e5 Kd2-e2 5.Ke5-f6 g5-g4 >6.Kf6-f5 Ke2-f2 7.Kf5xg4 Kf2xg2 > = (-0.09) Depth: 14/19 00:00:00 122kN, tb=984 >1.g2-g4! > = (-0.06) Depth: 14/19 00:00:00 127kN, tb=1161 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f2 >6.Ke5-f6 Kf2-g2 7.Kf6-g6 Kg2-h3 8.Kg6-h5 > = (-0.06) Depth: 15/18 00:00:00 135kN, tb=1339 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f2 >6.Ke5-f6 Kf2-f3 7.Kf6-f5 > = (0.19) Depth: 16/18 00:00:00 166kN, tb=2328 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f2 >6.Ke5-f6 Kf2-f3 7.Kf6-f5 > = (0.22) Depth: 17/20 00:00:01 199kN, tb=4288 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f2 >6.Ke5-f6 Kf2-f3 7.Kf6-f5 > = (0.22) Depth: 18/21 00:00:01 315kN, tb=45049 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f2 >6.Ke5-f6 Kf2-e3 7.Kf6-g6 Ke3-f4 8.Kg6-h5 Kf4-f3 9.h2-h3 Kf3-g3 10.Kh5xh6 Kg3-h4 > = (0.19) Depth: 19/22 00:00:02 594kN, tb=153924 >1.g2-g4! > ² (0.47) Depth: 20/22 00:00:03 790kN, tb=223933 >1.g2-g4! > ± (0.75) Depth: 20/22 00:00:03 810kN, tb=224938 >1.g2-g4! > ± (1.31) Depth: 20/22 00:00:03 864kN, tb=227443 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f2 >6.Ke5-f6 Kf2-f3 7.Kf6-f5 > +- (5.34) Depth: 20/27 00:00:05 1049kN, tb=270190 >1.g2-g4! > +- (5.81) Depth: 21/21 00:00:06 1349kN, tb=386032 >1.g2-g4! > +- (6.09) Depth: 21/21 00:00:06 1396kN, tb=392180 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e3 5.Kd5-e5 Ke3-f2 > +- (6.19) Depth: 21/24 00:00:06 1541kN, tb=438270 >1.g2-g4-- > +- (5.91) Depth: 22/25 00:00:07 1913kN, tb=590447 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d3 4.Kc5-d5 Kd3-e2 5.Kd5-e6 Ke2-e3 >6.Ke6-e5 > +- (5.34) Depth: 22/25 00:00:08 2098kN, tb=635312 >1.g2-g4! > +- (6.19) Depth: 23/23 00:00:10 2463kN, tb=786841 >1.g2-g4-- > +- (5.91) Depth: 24/28 00:00:12 3201kN, tb=1046890 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c3 3.Kb5-c5 Kc3-d2 4.Kc5-d6 Kd2-d3 5.Kd6-d5 Kd3-e2 > +- (5.34) Depth: 24/28 00:00:16 5142kN, tb=1329038 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c2 3.Kb5-c6 Kc2-c3 4.Kc6-c5 > +- (5.34) Depth: 25/28 00:00:23 8550kN, tb=2170800 >1.g2-g4 Ka2-b3 2.Ka6-b5 Kb3-c2 3.Kb5-c6 Kc2-c3 4.Kc6-c5 > +- (5.34) Depth: 26/28 00:00:25 9153kN, tb=2429594 Hi Thanks for the reply. This is true, Fritz 8 is not a MATE solving engine, even though at times it finds long mate quite rapidly. I just wonder why other "NOT MATE SOLVING ENGINES" find the Mate quite fast, and Fritz 80023 finds MATE in 31 in 5 min/17 seconds and after over 45 minutes, Fritz 8008 cannot find it at all. First off, just out of curiosity, do yo really have all the 5 man Tablebases? I bought the 9 disc set of Nalimov Tablebases, and there were still SOME (ONLY SOME) missing. I used the Tablebase Generator to find just which ones were missing and I then used the Tablebase Generator to GENERATE the missing endgames. This took a few days to do. Perhaps it would have taken only one day if I didn't have to break in between. I then copied the Generated endgames onto a DVD. Secondly, which engine version of Fritz 8 do you have? I had the Hashtables set at 64 MB in this case. I often have the much higher, sometimes upto 768 MB Sometimes the engine stalls at this setting and I then lower it to 640. Yes, Fritz 8 Version 8.0.0.8 solves the position in only 3 seconds where it shows a +-(1.41) (Plus Minus) rather than the Plus over Minus(0.84) it gave after only 2 seconds. Also in the 3 second time frame it shows +-(5.50. Fritz 8 Version 8.0.0.23 finds the position as +-(1.31) and +-(5.50)in the ONE second time frame. It also goes on to find the mate in 31 rather than 29. It finds this in 00:05:17. This shows quite a bit of difference between Engine Versions. I am curious as to just how much better is the recent 8.0.0.26 Version? The other odd thing to question, is........Many people are not happy with the 80023 version because of the e4 problem that so many have referred to on this site, and also, many believe that 8008 is stronger. Yet, 80023 is able to solve this position much quicker. It must also be noted, that, there are weaker engines out there that are able to solve some positions much faster than some stronger engines. The evaluations of Fritz 8008 and Fritz 80023 are shown below. Regards Happy New Year Brian New game 8/8/K6p/6p1/8/8/k5PP/8 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 8: Version 8.0.0.8 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 = (0.06) Depth: 7/9 00:00:00 2kN, tb=2 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 = (0.00) Depth: 8/10 00:00:00 4kN, tb=5 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 = (0.06) Depth: 9/10 00:00:00 6kN, tb=20 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Kf3 = (-0.16) Depth: 10/12 00:00:00 11kN, tb=42 1.Kb5! = (-0.12) Depth: 10/12 00:00:00 15kN, tb=77 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.h4 gxh4 = (0.00) Depth: 10/12 00:00:00 19kN, tb=107 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.g4 = (0.13) Depth: 11/14 00:00:00 31kN, tb=182 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.g4 Kf3 7.h3 = (0.03) Depth: 12/15 00:00:00 44kN, tb=263 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 = (0.00) Depth: 13/18 00:00:00 63kN, tb=401 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 14/19 00:00:00 89kN, tb=684 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 15/19 00:00:00 117kN, tb=1407 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 16/21 00:00:00 151kN, tb=2632 1.Kb5 Kb2 2.Kc5 Kc2 3.Kd5 Kd2 4.Ke4 Ke2 5.h3 Kf2 6.Kf5 Kxg2 = (0.00) Depth: 17/22 00:00:00 460kN, tb=11073 1.g4! = (0.03) Depth: 17/22 00:00:00 467kN, tb=11453 1.g4! = (0.19) Depth: 17/22 00:00:00 470kN, tb=11517 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Kf2 6.Kf6 Kf3 7.Kf5 ² (0.31) Depth: 17/22 00:00:00 501kN, tb=12081 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Kf2 6.Kf6 Kf3 7.Kf5 ² (0.31) Depth: 18/21 00:00:01 756kN, tb=47544 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Kf2 6.Kf6 Ke3 7.Kg6 Kf4 8.Kh5 Kf3 9.h3 Kg3 10.Kxh6 Kh4 ² (0.28) Depth: 19/22 00:00:01 1115kN, tb=127729 1.g4! ² (0.56) Depth: 20/22 00:00:02 1665kN, tb=174383 1.g4! ± (0.84) Depth: 20/23 00:00:02 1995kN, tb=176166 1.g4! +- (1.41) Depth: 20/23 00:00:03 2386kN, tb=177952 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Kf2 6.Kf6 Kf3 7.Kf5 +- (5.50) Depth: 20/30 00:00:03 2794kN, tb=231219 1.g4! +- (5.78) Depth: 21/25 00:01:53 116364kN, tb=1471471 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 +- (6.00) Depth: 21/26 00:02:44 169288kN, tb=2392722 1.g4! +- (6.28) Depth: 22/27 00:04:54 308932kN, tb=6115392 1.g4! +- (6.56) Depth: 22/27 00:07:29 478833kN, tb=9663489 1.g4! +- (7.13) Depth: 22/29 00:08:53 566382kN, tb=13126319 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke2 5.Ke6 Ke3 6.Ke5 Kf2 7.Kf6 +- (7.75) Depth: 22/29 00:10:18 655214kN, tb=16631895 1.g4-- +- (7.44) Depth: 23/26 00:10:19 655727kN, tb=16845182 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 +- (7.38) Depth: 23/29 00:13:14 837554kN, tb=23390202 1.g4! +- (7.75) Depth: 24/25 00:16:55 1067742kN, tb=36730461 1.g4! +- (8.03) Depth: 24/25 00:20:51 1315153kN, tb=51962149 1.g4! +- (8.59) Depth: 24/28 00:21:43 1367301kN, tb=55182229 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 +- (9.00) Depth: 24/30 00:22:33 1416181kN, tb=58741364 1.g4-- +- (8.72) Depth: 25/29 00:22:34 1416779kN, tb=58992295 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd2 4.Kd6 +- (7.25) Depth: 25/29 00:27:38 1729497kN, tb=80102631 1.g4! +- (7.53) Depth: 26/28 00:35:34 2220176kN, tb=124825916 1.g4! +- (7.84) Depth: 26/28 00:43:43 2724972kN, tb=170356605 (Katz, Eatontown 01.01.2004) New game 8/8/K6p/6p1/8/8/k5PP/8 w - - 0 1 Analysis by Fritz 8: Version 8.0.0.23 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 = (0.06) Depth: 7/9 00:00:00 2kN, tb=2 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 = (0.00) Depth: 8/10 00:00:00 4kN, tb=5 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 = (0.06) Depth: 9/10 00:00:00 7kN, tb=20 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Kf3 = (-0.16) Depth: 10/12 00:00:00 11kN, tb=42 1.Kb5! = (-0.12) Depth: 10/12 00:00:00 14kN, tb=77 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.h4 gxh4 = (0.00) Depth: 10/12 00:00:00 18kN, tb=107 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.g4 = (0.13) Depth: 11/14 00:00:00 29kN, tb=159 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.g4 Kf3 7.h3 = (0.03) Depth: 12/15 00:00:00 42kN, tb=240 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 = (0.00) Depth: 13/18 00:00:00 61kN, tb=382 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 14/19 00:00:00 84kN, tb=662 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 15/19 00:00:00 114kN, tb=1372 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 16/20 00:00:00 140kN, tb=3053 1.Kb5 Kb3 2.Kc5 Kc3 3.Kd5 Kd3 4.Ke5 Ke3 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 17/21 00:00:00 171kN, tb=7561 1.Kb5 Kb2 2.Kc5 Kc2 3.Kd5 Kd2 4.Ke4 Ke2 5.Kf5 Kf2 6.Kg4 Kxg2 7.h4 gxh4 8.Kxh4 h5 = (0.00) Depth: 18/23 00:00:00 379kN, tb=42478 1.g4! = (0.19) Depth: 18/23 00:00:00 491kN, tb=86976 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Ke2 6.Kf6 Kf3 7.Kf5 Ke3 8.Kg6 = (0.22) Depth: 18/23 00:00:00 526kN, tb=101944 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Ke2 6.Kf6 Ke3 7.Kg6 Kf4 8.Kh5 Kf3 9.h3 Kg3 = (0.19) Depth: 19/22 00:00:01 654kN, tb=153131 1.g4! ² (0.47) Depth: 20/22 00:00:01 805kN, tb=202201 1.g4! ± (0.75) Depth: 20/23 00:00:01 824kN, tb=203004 1.g4! ± (1.31) Depth: 20/23 00:00:01 868kN, tb=205044 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Ke2 6.Kf6 Kf3 7.Kf5 +- (5.50) Depth: 20/25 00:00:01 1068kN, tb=264218 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd3 4.Kd5 Ke3 5.Ke5 Ke2 6.Kf6 Kf3 7.Kf5 +- (5.50) Depth: 21/25 00:00:02 1804kN, tb=522108 1.g4! +- (6.00) Depth: 22/23 00:00:03 2401kN, tb=721303 1.g4-- +- (5.50) Depth: 23/27 00:00:04 3255kN, tb=1065927 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc3 3.Kc5 Kd2 4.Kd6 Kd3 5.Kd5 Ke2 6.Ke6 +- (4.72) Depth: 23/33 00:00:11 9867kN, tb=2075526 1.g4! +- (5.19) Depth: 24/27 00:00:13 11720kN, tb=2457606 1.g4! +- (6.00) Depth: 24/27 00:00:13 11764kN, tb=2465505 1.g4-- +- (5.69) Depth: 25/29 00:00:16 14290kN, tb=3337249 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc2 3.Kc6 Kc3 4.Kc5 +- (4.72) Depth: 25/31 00:00:26 24216kN, tb=5519588 1.g4! +- (5.31) Depth: 26/26 00:00:30 27523kN, tb=6441766 1.g4 Kb3 2.Kb5 Kc2 3.Kc6 Kc3 4.Kc5 +- (5.50) Depth: 26/30 00:00:31 28958kN, tb=6770874 1.g4! +- (6.00) Depth: 27/27 00:00:32 29618kN, tb=7061771 1.g4-- +- (5.66) Depth: 28/33 00:00:49 43511kN, tb=12239067 1.g4 Kb2 2.Kb6 Kb3 3.Kb5 +- (5.50) Depth: 28/34 00:00:50 44628kN, tb=12543045 1.g4! +- (6.00) Depth: 29/29 00:00:51 45298kN, tb=12839090 1.g4-- +- (5.66) Depth: 30/35 00:01:47 91781kN, tb=30752812 1.g4 Ka3 2.Ka5 Kb2 3.Kb6 +- (5.50) Depth: 30/35 00:01:49 93419kN, tb=31265417 1.g4! +- (6.00) Depth: 31/31 00:01:50 94268kN, tb=31639768 1.g4! +- (#31) Depth: 32/34 00:05:17 263197kN, tb=100953722 (Katz, Eatontown 01.01.2004)
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