Author: Robert Hyatt
Date: 20:24:25 01/04/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 04, 2004 at 22:52:32, Bob Durrett wrote: >On January 04, 2004 at 22:19:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: > >>On January 04, 2004 at 13:39:37, Bob Durrett wrote: >> >>>On January 03, 2004 at 23:46:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>> >>>>On January 03, 2004 at 21:22:51, K. Burcham wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I am not sure how this book learning works for each book move. >>>>>The value that is changed, is this only because of the loss? >>>>>Is the program using positional values once out of book to change the learned >>>>>value? >>>> >>>>Here is a thumbnail of what I do. >>>> >>>>1. Crafty remembers the evaluations for the first 10 moves out of book, >>>>after each search has been completed. It uses these evaluations to detect >>>>a "trend". IE is the evaluation good and getting better? Is it bad and >>>>getting worse? Is it good but dropping (ie it grabbed a gambit pawn and >>>>is beginning to see that it was bad) or is it bad but getting better (IE it >>>>offered a gambit, the opponent took it, and the score is going up). >>>> >>>>It factors all of that together and marks the book line as good or bad. >>>> >>>>2. Crafty takes the result of a game when it loses, and updates the book >>>>line so that moves tried near the end of the line simply don't get played, >>>>and alternatives near the front of the book line get tried next. >>>> >>>>There is more to it than that, and you can look at the crafty.doc file to >>>>at least see what I am doing in more detail. It is _very_ effective. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Lets say e4 is the most solid, dependable first move. >>>>>Lets say we lose 25 games with e4. >>>>>now we have a learned value for something. >>>>>Is this learned value only for e4? >>>>>Is this learned value only for the first move, regardlesss of the line played? >>>> >>>>For me, the entire line gets some "learning adjustment". The closer to the >>>>first move, the "smaller" the adjustment. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>If program A plays d4 against program B and wins 25 games. >>>>>If program A plays d4 against program C and loses 25 games. >>>>>If program C plays d4 against program B and loses 25 games. >>>>>I am not sure how this helps the high level book. >>>> >>>>The danger is that you are not learning about the "book", but about >>>>the "engines". That is a problem. Fortunately, it is not that common. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>Is all this learning for only the first book move? >>>> >>>>No. Crafty learns for _all_ moves along a line that was played. >>>> >>>>In fact, if you beat it with a line, you can expect to play against that >>>>line when you change colors and play it again. :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>kburcham >>> >>>Bob H: >>> >>>I get the impression that the communication with the book, and it's modification >>>is done by a GUI [or UI]. Does this imply that you have modified somebody's GUI >>>[or UI]? >>> >>>Bob D. >> >>Nope. I have specific code in Crafty. IE LearnBook() which is called by >>the Crafty UI after each non-book move is played... And at the end of the >>game when the "result" is known. > >The crafty UI????? That means you are more than just a mere engine designer. : >) [you also do UIs] > >Are you talking about a highly specialized UI you designed for automated games >at ICC? No. Any useful program has some sort of user interface, otherwise the user is not going to be able to do much with the program... > >Just curious. > >My main interest is in getting a better handle on the division of labor between >engines and software external to the engine, such as a GUI, tablebases, and >maybe an opening book. [may depend on programmer?] Partly, this is an attempt >to find a more precise definition of an "engine." I thought engine developers >HATED programming GUIs and UIs. : ) Where does the engine stop and the rest >begin? > >Bob D. Depends on the program. Some have a GUI and it is part of the program. Some have a GUI that is separate (xboard/winboard for example). Some don't have a GUI at all. All must have a UI of some sort however.
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