Author: Bob Durrett
Date: 07:39:51 01/05/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 04, 2004 at 23:24:25, Robert Hyatt wrote: >On January 04, 2004 at 22:52:32, Bob Durrett wrote: > >>On January 04, 2004 at 22:19:22, Robert Hyatt wrote: >> >>>On January 04, 2004 at 13:39:37, Bob Durrett wrote: >>> >>>>On January 03, 2004 at 23:46:10, Robert Hyatt wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 03, 2004 at 21:22:51, K. Burcham wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I am not sure how this book learning works for each book move. >>>>>>The value that is changed, is this only because of the loss? >>>>>>Is the program using positional values once out of book to change the learned >>>>>>value? >>>>> >>>>>Here is a thumbnail of what I do. >>>>> >>>>>1. Crafty remembers the evaluations for the first 10 moves out of book, >>>>>after each search has been completed. It uses these evaluations to detect >>>>>a "trend". IE is the evaluation good and getting better? Is it bad and >>>>>getting worse? Is it good but dropping (ie it grabbed a gambit pawn and >>>>>is beginning to see that it was bad) or is it bad but getting better (IE it >>>>>offered a gambit, the opponent took it, and the score is going up). >>>>> >>>>>It factors all of that together and marks the book line as good or bad. >>>>> >>>>>2. Crafty takes the result of a game when it loses, and updates the book >>>>>line so that moves tried near the end of the line simply don't get played, >>>>>and alternatives near the front of the book line get tried next. >>>>> >>>>>There is more to it than that, and you can look at the crafty.doc file to >>>>>at least see what I am doing in more detail. It is _very_ effective. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Lets say e4 is the most solid, dependable first move. >>>>>>Lets say we lose 25 games with e4. >>>>>>now we have a learned value for something. >>>>>>Is this learned value only for e4? >>>>>>Is this learned value only for the first move, regardlesss of the line played? >>>>> >>>>>For me, the entire line gets some "learning adjustment". The closer to the >>>>>first move, the "smaller" the adjustment. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>If program A plays d4 against program B and wins 25 games. >>>>>>If program A plays d4 against program C and loses 25 games. >>>>>>If program C plays d4 against program B and loses 25 games. >>>>>>I am not sure how this helps the high level book. >>>>> >>>>>The danger is that you are not learning about the "book", but about >>>>>the "engines". That is a problem. Fortunately, it is not that common. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Is all this learning for only the first book move? >>>>> >>>>>No. Crafty learns for _all_ moves along a line that was played. >>>>> >>>>>In fact, if you beat it with a line, you can expect to play against that >>>>>line when you change colors and play it again. :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>kburcham >>>> >>>>Bob H: >>>> >>>>I get the impression that the communication with the book, and it's modification >>>>is done by a GUI [or UI]. Does this imply that you have modified somebody's GUI >>>>[or UI]? >>>> >>>>Bob D. >>> >>>Nope. I have specific code in Crafty. IE LearnBook() which is called by >>>the Crafty UI after each non-book move is played... And at the end of the >>>game when the "result" is known. >> >>The crafty UI????? That means you are more than just a mere engine designer. : >>) [you also do UIs] >> >>Are you talking about a highly specialized UI you designed for automated games >>at ICC? > > > >No. Any useful program has some sort of user interface, otherwise the user >is not going to be able to do much with the program... > >> >>Just curious. >> >>My main interest is in getting a better handle on the division of labor between >>engines and software external to the engine, such as a GUI, tablebases, and >>maybe an opening book. [may depend on programmer?] Partly, this is an attempt >>to find a more precise definition of an "engine." I thought engine developers >>HATED programming GUIs and UIs. : ) Where does the engine stop and the rest >>begin? >> >>Bob D. > > >Depends on the program. Some have a GUI and it is part of the program. Some >have a GUI that is separate (xboard/winboard for example). Some don't have >a GUI at all. All must have a UI of some sort however. I guess you force me to reveal my ignorance. I no longer "understand" the meaning of "UI" : ( Bob D.
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