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Subject: Re: I still don't get it: time increment, why?

Author: Robert Hyatt

Date: 11:29:26 01/15/04

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On January 15, 2004 at 12:44:08, Gordon Rattray wrote:

>On January 15, 2004 at 11:39:28, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>So, supposing I have two PCs, with PC1 being faster than PC2 (both single CPU).
>>>Assume everying else is the same between them (engine, book, etc.).  What's the
>>>best time control for PC1's faster hardware to show it's superiority?
>>
>>Superiority in what?  Blitz games or long time controls?  If you are
>>interested in blitz, I'd play blitz.  If you are interested in 40/2hr, I'd
>>play 40 moves in 2 hours.
>
>
>I'm interested in PC1 winning as many games as possible over PC2. :-)  I'm
>thinking blitz is the answer (for my simplified conditions).
>
>
>>>
>>>I think that a faster time control is required, as this has the best chance of
>>>PC1 gaining a deeper search depth than PC2.  The fact that both are using the
>>>same engine is crucial to my thinking here.  I'm also using the belief that
>>>deeper searches have diminishing returns, although I'm not sure of the latest
>>>thoughts/data on this.
>>
>>Using the same program on both is one thing.  I was discussing two different
>>programs playing a match...
>
>Sure.  I was highlighting this in order to compare with my main question... the
>SMP case.  I guessed it was easier to simplify the engine factor before varying
>the hardware.
>
>
>>>
>>>But now let's complicate things a bit...
>>>
>>>Suppose PC1 is a dual CPU.  PC2 is a single CPU.  PC1 still generally faster
>>>while using both CPUs, but slower than PC1 if only using one CPU - assume 2 in
>>>use.  Engine still the same, and SMP capable.
>>>
>>>Could this change matters?  Could the fact that PC1 is running SMP - and hence
>>>the search is undeterministic - mean that PC1's search is more "hit and miss"
>>>and that luck starts to play more of a part?  Or will the SMP search be lucky
>>>and unlucky in such a manner that it balances itself out and doesn't matter
>>>overall?
>>
>>
>>Here is my answer.  Run the program on machine 1 (single cpu machine) and
>>look at the NPS.  Run the program on machine 2 using 2 cpus, but here take
>>the NPS and divide by 2 to convert to 1 cpu number, then multiply by 1.7
>>as that will be the rough approximation to the parallel speedup.  Compare
>>that number to the single-cpu machine's NPS.  The faster NPS should win,
>>the wider the margin in speed, the wider the margin in wins.
>
>
>Ok.  But if the two machines (same engine) play 10000 games at a "all in 1
>minute" control, and then another 10000 at "all in  10 min" control can we
>expect the win ratio to be the same (allowing for statistical error margins)?
>
>As in the "two PCs, both single CPU" example, we'd expect a faster time control
>to result in a bigger win ratio for the faster PC.  But does the inclusion of a
>SMP machine complicate this?  Could an ultra-fast time control result in more
>"unstable" searches and more "luck" being introduced?
>
>
>>>
>>>As a side note, I've recently run through some of the Nolot test suite with a
>>>SMP engine and the range of times (for the same test case) was greater than I
>>>thought.
>>>
>>>Gordon
>>
>>
>>You haven't been reading my posts here very long then.  :)  I have pointed this
>>out hundreds of times and given amazing examples of how wildly SMP results can
>>vary.  Even though one or two claim a variance of < 1% for _their_ program...
>>This makes testing and evaluation of changes _very_ complicated, as you can
>>see.
>
>
>Maybe I missed it.  But it's more likely the figures just didn't hit home with
>me till I seen it with my own eyes. :-)
>
>Gordon

The search is exponential.  The cpu difference is linear.  Reducing the depth
on both will favor the faster machine.  IE I'd rather have a 4:3 ply advantage
over my opponent than I would a 13:12 ply advantage.




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