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Subject: Asymmetry???

Author: Bob Durrett

Date: 12:21:34 01/16/04

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On January 16, 2004 at 14:42:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:

>On January 16, 2004 at 14:07:11, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>
>>On January 16, 2004 at 13:14:18, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>
>>>On January 15, 2004 at 23:20:02, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>>
>>>>On January 15, 2004 at 20:41:15, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On January 15, 2004 at 17:07:01, Drexel,Michael wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On January 15, 2004 at 16:27:13, Robert Hyatt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On January 15, 2004 at 15:09:07, Geoff wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I suspect Mr Kasparov would probably want a few dollars before considering that
>>>>>>>>option.
>>>>>>>>It made me wonder who is the strongest human opponent Crafty has played against?
>>>>>>>>I would be intrigued to know what the match score was ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>          Geoff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>PS
>>>>>>>>Thanks to Prof. Hyatt for the links to the online papers. Some interesting
>>>>>>>>reading material there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's played Shirov a lot of blitz.  Won most.  It's played Karpov some
>>>>>>>games and won them all but the sample size was small and it was a couple of
>>>>>>>years ago.  It has played Yasser, Benjamin, Kamsky, I'd hate to try to name
>>>>>>>them all...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It does very well at blitz, winning probably 90%.  At game/30 it wins way
>>>>>>>more than it loses.  Beyond that, who knows...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Has anyone ever beated Crafty in such a convincing way?
>>>>>>The game was played immediately after reading your post. I saw no engine output
>>>>>>and didn't analyze the opening before the game.
>>>>>>But it helped a lot to know that Crafty will never take on g5. People on ICC
>>>>>>who don't read CCC do not know this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Michael
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[Event "Blitz:10'+10""]
>>>>>>[Site "AMD 1.6 Ghz"]
>>>>>>[Date "????.??.??"]
>>>>>>[Round "?"]
>>>>>>[White "Drexel"]
>>>>>>[Black "Crafty 19.08"]
>>>>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>>>>[PlyCount "47"]
>>>>>>[TimeControl "600+10"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>{64MB, Shredder8.ctg, ATHLONXP} 1. c3 {0} b6 {0} 2. d4 {3} Bb7 {0} 3. Nf3 {3}
>>>>>>e6 {0.51/12 57} 4. Bg5 {(e3) 7} Nf6 {0.22/12 40} 5. Nbd2 {6} Be7 {0} 6. e3 {
>>>>>>(h4) 137} c5 {0} 7. Bd3 {(h3) 4} O-O {0} 8. Qe2 {(e4) 14} h6 {0.24/11 30} 9. h4
>>>>>>{(Bh4) 26} cxd4 {0.52/10 29} 10. exd4 {3} Qc7 {0.61/10 26} 11. O-O-O {11} Nc6 {
>>>>>>0.52/10 16} 12. Kb1 {6} Rac8 {0.60/10 22} 13. g4 {(Bxf6) 50} Nxg4 {0.25/10 28}
>>>>>>14. Rdg1 {(Rhg1) 29} h5 {0.25/10 27} 15. Nh2 {(Rg2) 132} f6 {-0.22/10 35} 16.
>>>>>>Nxg4 {(Be3) 28} hxg4 {0.69/10 50} 17. Qxg4 {23} f5 {1.55/9 5} 18. Qh5 {(Qg2) 87
>>>>>>} Rf7 {1.81/10 34} 19. Nf3 {26} Bd6 {3.51/11 70} 20. Bc1 {(Be3) 90} Ne7 {
>>>>>>3.91/10 53} 21. Ng5 {4} g6 {8.49/10 17} 22. Nxf7 {9} Bg3 {9.04/10 13} 23. Rxg3
>>>>>>{(Nh6+) 13} Kxf7 {12.02/10 64} 24. Qh7+ {5} 1-0
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It happens.  But in long and serious games, the anti-trojan stuff is always
>>>>>turned off by me, manually.  It is really important for blitz games, where
>>>>>the depth is not sufficient to avoid the mate when it is possible...  On fast
>>>>>hardware, I'd probably turn it off all the time, in fact...  Except for bullet
>>>>>games which is really the only place it had trouble with this before (2 1 games
>>>>>for example).
>>>>
>>>>I don't think my attack in this game was unsound.
>>>
>>>Neither do I.
>>>
>>>>Crafty never had the chance to take that bishop.
>>>
>>>
>>>I didn't look at that very carefully, I just took your comment to be
>>>directed at the Trojan Horse code, and I wanted to point out that at
>>>normal time controls, that is turned off, because it can easily see
>>>the difficulties when it has enough time.  This attack really only works
>>>at bullet-type time controls on the kind of hardware I normally use on ICC.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Knowing it will probably never take makes it just easier for me since I don't
>>>>have to calculate those lines.
>>>>
>>>>[D] rn1q1rk1/pb1pbppp/1p2pn2/2p3B1/3P4/2PBPN2/PP1NQPPP/R3K2R b KQ - 0 8
>>>>
>>>>I delayed castling with Qe2 and Crafty played h6. That's a serious strategical
>>>>mistake IMO. Chances are high that it would play h6 also on a Dual or Quad.
>>>>
>>>>You don't weaken your Kingside before White has castled short in this positions.
>>>>Either you play h6 _before_ castling yourself (so that white is forced to move
>>>>that bishop) or you play it after white has castled short. You don't play it at
>>>>all if white has castled long.
>>>>
>>>>Michael
>>>
>>>
>>>On my machine, it drops h6 inside 30 seconds and it doesn't go back to it.  IE
>>>Crafty knows exactly what you said about making luft (h6) which only creates a
>>>target for the opponent to shoot at.
>>>
>>>Here's the output on a dual xeon 2.8ghz with the current code:
>>>
>>>                7->   0.62   0.37   1. ... h6 2. Bf4 g5 3. Be5 cxd4 4.
>>>                                    cxd4 d6 5. Bg3 <HT>
>>>                8     1.06   0.49   1. ... h6 2. Bf4 cxd4 3. cxd4 Nc6 4.
>>>                                    O-O Nb4 5. Bc4 Rc8
>>>                8     2.10   0.38   1. ... cxd4 2. exd4 h6 3. Bxf6 Bxf6
>>>                                    4. O-O-O d5 5. Kb1 Nd7 6. Rhe1
>>>                8->   2.58   0.38   1. ... cxd4 2. exd4 h6 3. Bxf6 Bxf6
>>>                                    4. O-O-O d5 5. Kb1 Nd7 6. Rhe1 (s=4)
>>>                9     4.07   0.33   1. ... cxd4 2. exd4 Nd5 3. Bxe7 Qxe7
>>>                                    4. O-O-O Nf4 5. Qf1 Bxf3 6. Nxf3 Qd6
>>>                                    (s=3)
>>>                9->   4.72   0.33   1. ... cxd4 2. exd4 Nd5 3. Bxe7 Qxe7
>>>                                    4. O-O-O Nf4 5. Qf1 Bxf3 6. Nxf3 Qd6
>>>               10     7.77   0.42   1. ... cxd4 2. exd4 h6 3. Bh4 Nc6 4.
>>>                                    O-O d5 5. Rfe1 Bd6 6. Bg3 Rc8 7. Bxd6
>>>                                    Qxd6
>>>               10    14.65   0.33   1. ... h6 2. Bh4 d6 3. dxc5 bxc5 4.
>>>                                    O-O Nbd7 5. Rad1 Ng4 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.
>>>                                    e4
>>>               10->  14.65   0.33   1. ... h6 2. Bh4 d6 3. dxc5 bxc5 4.
>>>                                    O-O Nbd7 5. Rad1 Ng4 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.
>>>                                    e4 (s=2)
>>>               11    22.42   0.43   1. ... h6 2. Bf4 cxd4 3. cxd4 Nc6 4.
>>>                                    O-O Nb4 5. Bb5 a6 6. Bc4 d5 7. Bb3
>>>               11    42.98   0.26   1. ... cxd4 2. cxd4 Nd5 3. Bxe7 Qxe7
>>>                                    4. O-O d6 5. Rac1 Nc6 6. Ne4 Rac8 7.
>>>                                    Nfg5 f6 <HT>
>>>               11->  44.37   0.26   1. ... cxd4 2. cxd4 Nd5 3. Bxe7 Qxe7
>>>                                    4. O-O d6 5. Rac1 Nc6 6. Ne4 Rac8 7.
>>>                                    Nfg5 f6 <HT> (s=2)
>>>               12     1:11   0.31   1. ... cxd4 2. exd4 Nd5 3. Bxe7 Qxe7
>>>                                    4. O-O Nf4 5. Qe3 Nxd3 6. Qxd3 d6 7.
>>>                                    Rfe1 Nc6 8. Qe4
>>>               12->   1:19   0.31   1. ... cxd4 2. exd4 Nd5 3. Bxe7 Qxe7
>>>                                    4. O-O Nf4 5. Qe3 Nxd3 6. Qxd3 d6 7.
>>>                                    Rfe1 Nc6 8. Qe4
>>>               13     2:03   0.28   1. ... cxd4 2. cxd4 Nc6 3. O-O d6 4.
>>>                                    a3 Rc8 5. Rac1 Nd5 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.
>>>                                    b4 f5 8. b5 Na5
>>>               13->   2:46   0.28   1. ... cxd4 2. cxd4 Nc6 3. O-O d6 4.
>>>                                    a3 Rc8 5. Rac1 Nd5 6. Bxe7 Qxe7 7.
>>>                                    b4 f5 8. b5 Na5 (s=2)
>>>
>>>IE until 14 secs it would not play h6, then it likes it until 42 seconds, and
>>>then it won't come back to it in any reasonable time limit on my xeon...
>>>
>>>Given enough time it might actually change to d5, as it looked at that move
>>>longer and longer every iteration...
>>
>>That's strange. All my Windows Crafty engines (19.06,19.08,19.09) like
>>...h6 or ...cxd4 2.cxd4 h6 at depth 12 and 13.
>>I don't have a Linux Crafty to test.
>>
>>Nd5 is good. The position looks equal after that move.
>>
>>Michael
>
>
>The 19.9's are a bit "iffy" as I have made many changes in cleaning things
>up.  And I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of the changes affected this
>as code was cleaned up here and there.
>
>Also are you playing in game mode or analyze (analysis) mode?  That makes
>a huge difference in what it thinks about king safety.  IE analysis mode
>turns off almost all asymmetry that can be turned off, which will certainly
>change moves a lot...

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is "asymmetry," why do you have/use it, and
what does it buy you?  Does it help a lot?

Bob D.



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