Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 13:05:37 01/17/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 17, 2004 at 11:29:43, Mike Hood wrote: >On January 17, 2004 at 10:15:23, Drexel,Michael wrote: > >>On January 17, 2004 at 08:36:41, Mike Hood wrote: >> >>>On January 15, 2004 at 11:53:11, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>> >>>>On January 15, 2004 at 10:26:37, Mike Hood wrote: >>>> >>>>>On January 15, 2004 at 07:56:05, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On January 15, 2004 at 07:41:22, Mike Hood wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On January 15, 2004 at 04:17:34, Drexel,Michael wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On January 14, 2004 at 18:57:50, Mike Hood wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>On January 14, 2004 at 16:08:24, David H. McClain wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On January 14, 2004 at 15:07:39, Chris Taylor wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Does S8 know how to use the 6 piece egtbs'? I could wait for it to arrive, nah; >>>>>>>>>>>please tell me! I have ordered the dam things and would like to know if I have >>>>>>>>>>>wasted my GBPs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Chris >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Chris, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Being an amatuer here perhaps I am making an incorrect assumption about this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>When I use my Shredder 7.04 the heavy hard drive activity appears to indicate it >>>>>>>>>>is accessing EGTBs tablebases when there are six pieces left on the board. I >>>>>>>>>>have assumed all along that this indicates that Shredder 7.04 is using a few of >>>>>>>>>>my 6 piece EGTBs or is at least looking for them. Shredder Classic GUI also >>>>>>>>>>states "6 piece EGTBs found" when changing hash table size for them. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Hopefully one of our experts on this can either confirm or refute this. If this >>>>>>>>>>is in fact true then I see no reason why S 8 would not do the same. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>DHM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>The disk activity (and the "tb=" info in the engine window) when 6 pieces are on >>>>>>>>>the board doesn't necessarily mean that Shredder 7 is accessing a 6-piece >>>>>>>>>tablebase. It might only be accessing 5-piece tablebases in a search line which >>>>>>>>>results in the capture of one of the pieces. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>As far as I know, Shredder 7 accesses the single part 6-piece tablebases, ie the >>>>>>>>>tablebases that don't have a digit in the filename. The only programs that I >>>>>>>>>know that access the multi-part 6-piece tablebases are Hiarcs 9 and Crafty. I >>>>>>>>>assume that Shredder 8 can be added to this list. Ask me again next week. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>You can add Fritz 7 and Fritz 8 to that list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Michael >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Sorry, Michael, you're wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>>No, I am right. Both Fritz 7 and Fritz 8 use them in the search. >>>>>> >>>>>>New game >>>>>>3kr3/8/8/8/8/3p4/2PP4/2RK4 w - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>Analysis by Fritz 7: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. = (0.00): 1.Ta1 dxc2+ 2.Kxc2 Te2 3.Ta7 Te1 >>>>>>2. = (0.00): 1.Tb1 dxc2+ 2.Kxc2 Te2 >>>>>>3. = (0.00): 1.cxd3 Te5 2.d4 Td5 >>>>>>4. -+ (-#28): 1.c3 Th8 2.Ke1 >>>>>>5. -+ (-#21): 1.c4 Tg8 2.Ke1 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>New game >>>>>>3kr3/8/8/8/8/3p4/2PP4/2RK4 w - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>Analysis by Fritz 8: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. = (0.00): 1.cxd3 Kd7 >>>>>>2. = (0.00): 1.Ta1 dxc2+ 2.Kxc2 >>>>>>3. = (0.00): 1.Tb1 dxc2+ 2.Kxc2 >>>>>>4. -+ (-#27): 1.c3 Tg8 2.Ke1 Tg1+ 3.Kf2 Txc1 4.Ke3 Te1+ 5.Kd4 Te2 6.Kxd3 >>>>>>5. -+ (-#21): 1.c4 Th8 2.Ke1 Th1+ 3.Kf2 Txc1 4.Ke3 Txc4 5.Kxd3 Tc1 6.Kd4 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>This is what you get if an engine does not use them: >>>>>> >>>>>>New game >>>>>>3kr3/8/8/8/8/3p4/2PP4/2RK4 w - - 0 1 >>>>>> >>>>>>Analysis by Fritz 6: >>>>>> >>>>>>1. ± (1.38): 1.cxd3 Kd7 2.Tc5 Kd6 3.Ta5 Kc6 4.d4 Te4 5.d5+ Kb6 >>>>>>2. = (0.00): 1.Tb1 dxc2+ 2.Kxc2 >>>>>>3. = (0.00): 1.Ta1 dxc2+ 2.Kxc2 >>>>>>4. -+ (-#27): 1.c3 Th8 2.Ke1 Th1+ 3.Kf2 Txc1 4.Ke3 Te1+ 5.Kd4 Te2 >>>>>>5. -+ (-#21): 1.c4 Th8 2.Ke1 Th1+ 3.Kf2 Txc1 4.Ke3 Txc4 >>>>>> >>>>>>Michael >>>>> >>>>>Michael, these analyses don't prove anything. When you analyse parallel lines, >>>>>Fritz doesn't display the "tb=" info which is needed for proof. Also, in order >>>>>to carry out the test you need to remove all the 5-piece, 4-piece and 3-piece >>>>>tablebases before starting Fritz. I can guarantee you that the Fritz 7 and Fritz >>>>>8 engines (Fritz 8.0.0.23) don't access multi-part tablebases. However, Fritz 7 >>>>>and Fritz 8 do access single-part 6-piece tablebases. >>>> >>>>The tb info is no proof at all. It is also not needed for a proof. >>> >>>The "tb=" info is the only valid proof for tests like this, providing that the >>>5-piece and smaller tablebases have been removed and you are carrying out your >>>tests using ONLY the 6-piece tablebases. The evaluation is secondary, because it >>>might just be a good result from a good engine. >> >>Think about that again. You won't find any program that can see a mate in 40 >>here. >> >>I looked at your test results, >>>but I still have to ask: did you remove all the 3-, 4- and 5-piece tablebases >>>before carrying out the tests. >> >>No >> >>>I don't need the proof for myself, because I already have Fritz 7 and Fritz 8, >>>and I know they don't use multi-part 6-piece tablebases. I'm trying to prove it >>>to you. >> >>Your Fritz 7 and Fritz 8 engines do not use them. OK >>Does that mean that my Fritz 8 can't use them? No >> >>IIRC you are able to understand German text: >> >>http://f23.parsimony.net/forum50826/messages/86778.htm >> >>http://www.chessbase.com/shopd/product.asp?pid=221 >> >>Michael > >Right, Michael... I know that the Fritz 8 upgrade packaged with the DVD Endgame >Turbo allows access to the multi-part 6-piece tablebases. I haven't bought this >product, and I don't intend to, because I assume multi-part tablebase access >will be included with Shredder 8, which (I hope!) will arrive in the mail very >soon. Fritz 7 has always supported access to single part 6-piece tablebases. As I wrote above "You can add Fritz 7 and Fritz 8 to that list" I meant they can access the multi-part files now. i.e. _after_ my Shredder 8 installation. "Out of the box" they can't access the multi-part tablebases of course. You wrote: "If you have the updated TBAccess.dll from Chessbase's DVD Endgame Turbo, the tablebase will be accessed directly after playing cxd3. When a tablebase position is on the board, the engine is disabled and the GUI's tablebase engine is enabled in its place. But this doesn't change the fact that the engines themselves don't understand the multi-part tablebases." The latter was wrong. Michael
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