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Subject: Re: Can white win? (no)

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 03:42:50 01/18/04

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On January 18, 2004 at 05:29:59, Kurt Utzinger wrote:

>On January 18, 2004 at 04:44:59, martin fierz wrote:
>
>>On January 18, 2004 at 02:27:35, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>>
>>>On January 18, 2004 at 01:25:52, Kurt Utzinger wrote:
>>>
>>>>[D]8/8/5pk1/5b2/7K/3R3p/7P/8 w - - 0 1
>>>
>>>How on earth should White win this position? I see no way
>>>to do this. Some reasons for my assumption:
>>>
>>>1.)
>>>If White at some time takes the h3-pawn with the rook,
>>>the pawn ending is a draw.
>>>
>>>2)
>>>The only try would be to win Black's f6-pawn. But
>>>this can't be done.
>>>
>>>3)
>>>But even in the case that due to some Zugzwang
>>>White wins the f6-pawn, the position still looks
>>>drawn.
>>>
>>>Any counter arguments.
>>>Kurt
>>
>>hi kurt, uri,
>>
>>this is an interesting position. the first thing to note are a couple of
>>theroetically known endgames:
>>
>>-> if white succeeds in winning both black pawns, he wins
>[D]7k/R7/7P/6K1/8/3b4/8/8 w - - 0 1
>>
>>-> however, if he is careless then, he only draws
>>[D]7k/R7/7P/6K1/8/3b4/8/8  w - - 0 1
>>
>>these two endings are just interesting so i posted them anyway. but they are
>>irrelevant. the relevant ending is if white wins the f-pawn:
>>
>[D]8/8/6k1/5b2/7K/3R3p/7P/8 w - - 0 1
>>this is supposed to be a win in endgame theory AFAIK, and that is the
>>counter-argument to kurt's argument #3 - if white succeeds in winning f6, he
>>will in fact win the game. in addition, the wins of this type of endgame usually
>>are very very deep, so even searching this position to 30 or 40 ply might not be
>>enough to see the win of the h-pawn.
>>
>>if somebody has the KRPKBP tablebase and time to spend he could run the original
>>position over night and se what happens...
>>
>>cheers
>>  martin
>
>    Hi Martin
>    Indeed a very interesting position in which the main
>    question remains: can White succeed in winning Black's
>    f6-pawn?
>    Kurt

It seems that white can do it(or to win the h3 pawn)
Otherwise I see no explanation for Yace increase in the score.

Uri



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