Author: martin fierz
Date: 04:31:08 01/18/04
Go up one level in this thread
On January 18, 2004 at 06:42:50, Uri Blass wrote: >On January 18, 2004 at 05:29:59, Kurt Utzinger wrote: > >>On January 18, 2004 at 04:44:59, martin fierz wrote: >> >>>On January 18, 2004 at 02:27:35, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >>> >>>>On January 18, 2004 at 01:25:52, Kurt Utzinger wrote: >>>> >>>>>[D]8/8/5pk1/5b2/7K/3R3p/7P/8 w - - 0 1 >>>> >>>>How on earth should White win this position? I see no way >>>>to do this. Some reasons for my assumption: >>>> >>>>1.) >>>>If White at some time takes the h3-pawn with the rook, >>>>the pawn ending is a draw. >>>> >>>>2) >>>>The only try would be to win Black's f6-pawn. But >>>>this can't be done. >>>> >>>>3) >>>>But even in the case that due to some Zugzwang >>>>White wins the f6-pawn, the position still looks >>>>drawn. >>>> >>>>Any counter arguments. >>>>Kurt >>> >>>hi kurt, uri, >>> >>>this is an interesting position. the first thing to note are a couple of >>>theroetically known endgames: >>> >>>-> if white succeeds in winning both black pawns, he wins >>[D]7k/R7/7P/6K1/8/3b4/8/8 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>-> however, if he is careless then, he only draws >>>[D]7k/R7/7P/6K1/8/3b4/8/8 w - - 0 1 >>> >>>these two endings are just interesting so i posted them anyway. but they are >>>irrelevant. the relevant ending is if white wins the f-pawn: >>> >>[D]8/8/6k1/5b2/7K/3R3p/7P/8 w - - 0 1 >>>this is supposed to be a win in endgame theory AFAIK, and that is the >>>counter-argument to kurt's argument #3 - if white succeeds in winning f6, he >>>will in fact win the game. in addition, the wins of this type of endgame usually >>>are very very deep, so even searching this position to 30 or 40 ply might not be >>>enough to see the win of the h-pawn. >>> >>>if somebody has the KRPKBP tablebase and time to spend he could run the original >>>position over night and se what happens... >>> >>>cheers >>> martin >> >> Hi Martin >> Indeed a very interesting position in which the main >> question remains: can White succeed in winning Black's >> f6-pawn? >> Kurt > >It seems that white can do it(or to win the h3 pawn) >Otherwise I see no explanation for Yace increase in the score. > >Uri uri, wouldn't you be seeing a huge jump in the score if it really saw the win of a pawn? but you only see +0.02 or so on next iterations. i let shredder 8 (unfortunately without TBs) run overnight on the starting position, it reached depth 38, and the score on d30 was +1.50 and at d38 +1.52 (or something like that). i would guess that it sees it can get a tiny bit better piece placement which explains +.02 difference, but nothing more. i added the 4-man TBs now, and am trying a shootout at 1min/move, and will repeat the deep search later - but i really don't think your interpretation of yace's score is right here - why shouldn't it evaluate this position as +1.xx? it's clear that only white has winning chances... i also would guess that this position is a draw - but who knows? cheers martin
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