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Subject: Re: Engines (without book) are DAMNED STRONG in the opening; Nonsense

Author: Uri Blass

Date: 01:03:46 01/30/04

Go up one level in this thread


On January 28, 2004 at 14:40:48, Drexel,Michael wrote:

>On January 27, 2004 at 16:52:59, Mike S. wrote:
>
>>On January 27, 2004 at 03:07:02, Reinhard Scharnagl wrote:
>>
>>>a) an intelligent engine, which could navigate itself through any opening phase
>>
>>The Rogozenko match has shown that nowadays engines (even if not especially
>>adapted for FRC or Shuffle) are most probably stronger than a "normal" GM at
>>this. Rogozenko lost that match against Tiger 15, even although he was allowed
>>to use a computer for tactical assistance!
>
>GM Rogozenko might not be able to win against computers in FRC with tactical
>assistance.
>
>You conclude from one match (specific player vs. specific program) that
>a normal GM is "most probably" weaker.
>The same person would cry out loud if someone would draw the conclusion from one
>short match Ruffian 2-Shredder 8 that ended clearly in favour of Ruffian 2:
>
>Ruffian 2 is most probably stronger than Shredder 8.
>
>>
>>You always argue like engines would be complete unable to play openings
>>themselves. This is just plain wrong and provides false information for new
>>computerchess fans. It's just that the level of play may be somewhat lower
>>*sometimes* (in a minority of cases IMO), maybe 2300 instead of 2600 in extreme
>>cases, i.e. in difficult long range gambits. Man needed *decades* of opening
>>theory and practise to explore such gambits. Often, much of the old analysis is
>>wrong, refutations are found again and again. So why expect from chess engines,
>>that they find all this correctly in 3 minutes?? :-))
>>
>>In general, engines will be better than IMs and GMs anyway, when "normal"
>>(normal for computers means very deep) tactical things have to be calculated in
>>the opening. Im not talking about Kasparov, but "normal" GMs. Most engines know
>>the common opening principles quite well (different quality of engines
>>undisputed).
>
>Man, you have obviously no clue about what you are talking here.
>Two of the three best programs according to SSDF (Fritz and Junior) know nothing
>about common opening principles.
>Junior moves its Qeen around in the opening like someone who hasn't learned yet
>how to move with knights and bishops and Deep Fritz plays sometimes even worse:
>
>http://talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?345123

Are you sure that Deep fritz8 played the moves?

I do not have Deep Fritz8 but I suspect that the person who run it did an error
and used a weak personality of Deep Fritz8.

No chess program should play the stupid moves in the strongest setting unless it
has serious bugs.

Uri



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