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Subject: Re: Shredder 8 bug ? (Zied Haddad)

Author: Bob Durrett

Date: 11:16:29 02/03/04

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On February 03, 2004 at 13:59:54, Matthias Gemuh wrote:

>On February 03, 2004 at 12:49:53, William Penn wrote:
>
>>On February 03, 2004 at 11:02:05, Bob Durrett wrote:
>>
>>>On February 03, 2004 at 08:09:52, William Penn wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 03, 2004 at 04:32:35, Matthias Gemuh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Zied Haddad seems to be unable to connect to CCC from Tunesia.
>>>>>He seeks to know whether others have encountered a Shredder 8 problem he has:
>>>>>
>>>>>after playing many games in a row without clearing hash tables, Shredder 8
>>>>>starts messing and missing even mate in 1, till hash tables are cleared.
>>>>>
>>>>>[http://f50.parsimony.net/forum200321/messages/5855.htm]
>>>>>
>>>>>/Matthias
>>>>>(message posted on Zied's request)
>>>>
>>>>You may be right. I'm not sure yet, but I will start clearing the hash tables
>>>>before each analysis and see if it makes a difference. Note that I only run
>>>>Shredder 8 in infinite analysis mode for a long time to analyze positions.
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>WP
>>>
>>>(1)  I read somewhere that it's always a good idea to clear the hashtables
>>>before starting a new analysis but do not recall the reason.  Nevertheless, I
>>>now always hit that "clear hashtable" button whenever I see it.
>>>
>>>(2)  The PV for Shredder is total garbage except for the first move and this is
>>>a known bug in Shredder, acknowledged by it's author.  It hopefully will be
>>>fixed one of these days.  The sooner the better.
>>>
>>>(3)  With some engines, I notice another bug which may or may not be related to
>>>this one.  While doing user-guided infinite analysis, sometimes the nps number
>>>drops to a tenth of it's normal value.  When that happens I cuss a little and
>>>then save the position, turn off the engine, and then restart it, clearing the
>>>hashtable.  Then the nps goes back to a reasonable value.  I do not recall which
>>>engine does this, but it has to be either Crafty, Shredder, Fritz, Hiarcs,
>>>Tiger, or Junior since those are the engines I use as CB8 analysis engines and
>>>for overnight automated game analyses.
>>>
>>>(4)  I still have not learned how to use Chessmaster for analysis, perhaps
>>>because I'm getting overly senile.  It's a pity that The King is not available
>>>as a CB8 analysis engine because if it were I would use it often.
>>>
>>>Bob D.
>>
>>Thanks for the info. Can you tell me what "PV" means? I see it mentioned all the
>>time but have never run across the definition.
>>
>>As for nps dropping drastically to 1/10th of it's normal value... That can
>>happen in endgames with any engine due to heavy tablebase access, although it's
>>not usually so drastic. You can tell if that's the case because of constant hard
>>drive access (the hard drive activity light stays on). I've also seen some
>>significant dropping of nps with the Shredder 8 Gambit engine, but again not so
>>drastic, perhaps to 1/3rd of normal value. I haven't seen that happen with the
>>native Shredder 8 engine, which is usually fairly constant speed in a particular
>>position. There's also the possibility for the counter in some older engines to
>>wrap back around to zero when it gets to a certain value, a large number which I
>>don't recall offhand. That causes a big drop in nps, but it's only artifical -
>>the speed hasn't actually slowed down.
>>WP
>
>
>
>A Principal Variation is (from your posting) this thing :
>28.Kf2 f5 29.Ke1 a4 30.Ke2 Kf7 31.g4 fxg4 32.Rc4 dxc4 33.b3 axb3 34.Kd2 bxa2
>
>A dramatical drop in nps during long analysis is often due to counter overflow,
>especially when programmer mistakenly uses counters of wrong type
>(e.g. 32 bit counters instead of 64 bit)
>
>/Matthias.

Thanks, Matthias, for making me feel better.  I feared it was "stupid operator
error" of the senile type.  : )

Generally, we are back to the issue of whether or not commercial program
producers REALLY care about the users.  Sometimes I think users are merely a
source of money.  I would like to see flawless and meaningful outputs sent to
the user always without exception.  I guess it sometimes is not a real priority
for the producer [not necessarily the programmer].

Bob D.



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