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Subject: Re: shredder marks has no problem

Author: Vincent Diepeveen

Date: 15:32:30 02/09/04

Go up one level in this thread


On February 09, 2004 at 17:36:44, Aaron Gordon wrote:

>On February 09, 2004 at 17:29:09, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>
>>On February 09, 2004 at 09:36:23, Aaron Gordon wrote:
>>
>>bandwidth doesn't count.
>>
>>it's random access latency that does count.
>>
>>did you try dieter's latency test?
>>
>>if so, show the times please.
>
>No, I did not run the 'dieter' latency test. Only the two tests I specified in
>the previous message. Try searching the CCC archive for my posted lmbench &
>sciencemark results if you'd like to see them.
>

No i won't. they are useless for computerchess.


>>>On February 09, 2004 at 08:32:55, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>
>>>>On February 09, 2004 at 08:17:11, Aaron Gordon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On February 08, 2004 at 21:45:09, Vincent Diepeveen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On February 08, 2004 at 18:12:42, Aaron Gordon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On February 08, 2004 at 17:21:57, Ingo Bauer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Shredder8Mark:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Athlon XP 2.5GHz / 218fsb(436DDR):
>>>>>>>>>64mb hash : 504kn/s  -  3712 Shredder8Mark
>>>>>>>>>409mb hash: 334kn/s  -  2227 Shredder8Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Athlon XP 2.5GHz / 200fsb(400DDR):
>>>>>>>>>64mb hash : 503kn/s  -  3712 Shredder8Mark
>>>>>>>>>409mb hash: 309kn/s  -  2227 Shredder8Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Athlon XP 2.5GHz / 166fsb(333DDR):
>>>>>>>>>64mb hash : 476kn/s  -  3712 Shredder8Mark
>>>>>>>>>409mb hash: 263kn/s  -  1856 Shredder8Mark
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I'm impressed.. going from 166 to 218 resulted in a 27% increase in kn/s. Way
>>>>>>>>>back in the day when I tested Crafty it showed no increase in kn/s from changes
>>>>>>>>>in bus speeds (latency or memory bandwidth). Interesting... Looks like my next
>>>>>>>>>system will be a freon cooled Athlon FX running over 3GHz and 300fsb
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Dont trust this Shreddermark!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Check the same thing with a Fritzmark and/or Crafty. Somethings wrong weith that
>>>>>>>>Shreddermark.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Ingo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I suspected the same.. so.. I did a few tests. The test was done using infinite
>>>>>>>analysis from the start position. The ply next to the name of the engine is
>>>>>>>where I took the total node count and divided it by the time to ply.
>>>>>>>Here are the results:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Athlon XP 2.5GHz and 384mb hash for all engines:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Shredder 8 @ 18 ply:
>>>>>>>218fsb: 409kn/s
>>>>>>>166fsb: 409kn/s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>X3D Fritz @ 15 ply:
>>>>>>>218fsb: 1116.9kn/s
>>>>>>>166fsb: 1116.9kn/s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Hiarcs 9 @ 13 ply:
>>>>>>>218fsb: 275.35kn/s
>>>>>>>166fsb: 269.23kn/s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Junior 8 @ 17 ply:
>>>>>>>218fsb: 1999.54kn/s
>>>>>>>166fsb: 1987.98kn/s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Deep Fritz 7 @ 15 ply:
>>>>>>>218fsb: 1144.69kn/s
>>>>>>>166fsb: 1129.83kn/s
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>As you can see a higher fsb (and lower latency) did next to nothing.
>>>>>>>ShredderMark definitely has some problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Not at all. Shreddermark has NO problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Shredder like DIEP just uses your RAM more efficient than Fritz&co, however
>>>>>>unlike DIEP, shredder is doing it at a way higher nps than DIEP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That means that the number of random accesses to the RAM is really a lot bigger
>>>>>>than it is for Fritz&co.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I fully understand this from Shredder and i fear the day already that processors
>>>>>>get a lot faster without having a L3 cache of say 64MB :)
>>>>>
>>>>>Do you not see that Shredder got absolutely *NO* increase in kn/s from a 30%+
>>>>>increase in bus speed? In the real world Shredder gets no increase.. in
>>>>>ShredderMark it shows odd results and increases.. probably due to GUI overhead
>>>>>(spending more time switching to various positions rather than searching a
>>>>>position) and poor timer code.
>>>>
>>>>the short measuring time will have some influence. BUS speed is not holy.
>>>>It *must* improve latency.
>>>>
>>>>Until you manage to proof that something improves latency, you won't find any
>>>>speed diffs with shredder using the same cpu, i'm sure of that.
>>>>
>>>>A faster bus speed doesn't mean a faster latency to memory automatically.
>>>>
>>>>Only in general it means that.
>>>>
>>>>Also, you overclock your hardware just too much.
>>>>
>>>>I'm sure that the 1 week garantuee you give at it is sometimes not even covering
>>>>your ****, as it will be broken after 6 days or so :)
>>>
>>>I already proved that when I increased fsb it decreased my latency by a
>>>significant amount. If you recall I managed something like 100ns at 166fsb and
>>>70ns at 218fsb (and 65ns @ 223 or so I think). This was tested with lmbench as
>>>well as with sciencemark. Both showed the same result. So, during this test the
>>>bandwidth went up over 30% and there was a BIG decrease in latency. No
>>>improvements.
>>>
>>>As for the guarantee.. I have had NO cpus returned or had anyone tell me they
>>>had any problems with it. They are OEM chips and AMD doesn't warranty those
>>>chips anyway. They are lucky they get ANY warranty from me. If a chip fails I
>>>replace it for free and take the loss. This has *NEVER* happened.
>>>
>>>My personal CPU has been running for over a year at 2.5GHz (from 1.73ghz) and
>>>1.975v. No problems.. I also have a Celeron 566 running 1004MHz air-cooled. It
>>>is my business system (accounting, filing, etc) and has been running 1.0 to
>>>1.2ghz since I first got it a few years ago. It too has had *NO* problems. Nor
>>>has the Athlon Thunderbird 1GHz AXIA running 1.5ghz in my fiances computer. It
>>>too has been running many years without ANY problems.
>>>
>>>My server is a Duron 600 running 1GHz.. it had something like 300 days of uptime
>>>before I took it down because the ball bearings on the fan were failing. This as
>>>you know has nothing to do with overclocking. I just replaced the fan and the
>>>system went back up as usual... no problems. Before that I use to run a dual
>>>Celeron 400 @ 552MHz as the server. No problems with it, either.
>>>
>>>Don't blame me for you blowing up computers. If they explode for you apparently
>>>you think no one can do it.. or no cpu will last more than 12 seconds
>>>overclocked. Just because you cannot doesn't mean someone else cannot. If I
>>>recall correctly you expressed the same attitude in the past in regards to chess
>>>programming.. I'm sure Hyatt knows what I'm talking about.
>>>
>>>In short. If you're going to overclock.. do it properly and know you're taking
>>>risks. If you blow up something don't go harassing the people that can
>>>overclock. I know what I'm doing Vincent.. so I don't want to hear any comments
>>>or opinions on the matter from you.



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