Author: Drexel,Michael
Date: 08:46:43 02/10/04
Go up one level in this thread
On February 10, 2004 at 10:50:05, Bigler wrote: >On February 10, 2004 at 10:30:31, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: > >>On February 10, 2004 at 09:16:25, Bigler wrote: >> >>>On February 10, 2004 at 07:51:34, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>> >>>>On February 10, 2004 at 06:30:09, Kim Roper Jensen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 09, 2004 at 14:21:32, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On February 09, 2004 at 05:20:48, Bigler wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Dear all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Could you please help me by analysing EXHAUSTIVELY this position and find the >>>>>>>best way for black to play. (not just say i.e. Shredder 8 says +0.6 for white >>>>>>>after 17…Rb8) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>POSITION: >>>>>>>1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 e5 6.Ndb5 d6 7.Bg5 a6 8.Na3 b5 >>>>>>>9.Bxf6 gxf6 10.Nd5 Bg7 11.Bd3 Ne7 12.Nxe7 Qxe7 13.0-0 0-0 14.c4 f5 15.Qf3 Qb7 >>> >>>I nevertheless still have a question in this line. If 15...Qb7 is not good for >>>black. there is an issue in for black in this line as 15...bxc4 is lost and >>>15...Re8 is also lost. The only remaining line is 15...f4 >>> >>>If you think that either 15...bxc4 or Re8 are not lost would you agree that we >>>play it. >>> >>>Let me know !! >> >>You know my judgement 15.Qf3 +- >> >>So basically it doesn't matter what you try to find at move 15 or 16 or 17. It's >>IMHO 1-0 when white doesn't make serious mistakes. >> >>You can try and fiddle and try, but if something is lost, it is a lost position >>then. >> >>Which by the way is not always so easy to proof at a 40 in 2 game. However >>compare it to for example benko gambit which i play myself sometimes too. No >>hair at my body doubts that this is a lost opening for black, yet the tactical >>complications are so big for white that there is many opponents i do not fear >>trying it against. >> >>In fact i see several IMs lose it with white. >> >>In this Sveshnikov line this is not the case however. White has after some hard >>work the past 14 years from many players, found the way to win these lines in >>convincing ways. >> >>So i wish you good luck but advice you to look to lines that are more >>interesting. >> >>You should really look to what Kramnik plays with black against strong human >>opponents. That's in general giving white at most a very slight advantage, if >>there is any advantage at all. >> >>>Best regards >>>>>>>16.exf5 Qxf3 17.gxf3... and now ???? >>>>>> >>>>>>My judgement after playing this line for years is: >>>>>> >>>>>>15. Qf3 +- >>>>>> >>>>>>Oh by the way, many GM's agree here with me. Please read for example GM Jacob >>>>>>Aagaards' book : "easy guide to the sveshnikov sicilian". >>>>> >>>>>Well Jacon is only an IM, although he got a norm in the rilton cup(where he >>>>>played a nice french from the whites side against stellan brynell) i know this >>>>>because i have known Jacob for some years ( 10+ ) >>>> >>>>I didn't check FIDE list. He sure wrote a book above IM level! >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>The few 'unclear' lines you can find easily improvements to +- not seldom ++--. >>>>>> >>>>>>Just like certain mainlines French this is another mainline that's completely >>>>>>refuted. >>>>>> >>>>>>>on >>>>>>>17...... Rb8 18.Be4 +/- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>17….. bxc4 18.Be4 d5 19.Bxd5 Rb8 20.Nxc4 +/- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>When looking at the position after 17.gxf3 it seems difficult to believe that >>>>>>>black is unable to equalise. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Many thanks in advance for your help ! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Best regards > >So according to your statement the line 11...Ne7 is already lost for black ?! >Which variation do you recomend ? what was interesting with the line 10...Bg7 is >that there is less variation to lurn than 10...f5 which is actually the most >played line. >By the way, what is your comments and/or improvement of the game that Kramnik >lost against Anand. Did he play according to your assumption the best line ? > >Thanks for your help and sharing idees. > >Best regards Unless you plan to play against Anand&Co there is no reason to avoid that line. The line is much too complicated for amateur players. The player who is better prepared has better chances. Try 15...d5 16.cxd5 fxe4 17.Bxe4 Rb8 for example. It makes not much sense to request analysis here. You have to do some work on your own. [Event "EuTCh"] [Site "Plovdiv BUL"] [Date "2003.10.20"] [Round "9"] [White "Lutz, C."] [Black "Radjabov, T."] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [ECO "B33"] [WhiteElo "2613"] [BlackElo "2650"] [PlyCount "152"] [EventDate "2003.10.10"] [Source ""] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8. Na3 b5 9. Bxf6 gxf6 10. Nd5 Bg7 11. Bd3 Ne7 12. Nxe7 Qxe7 13. c4 f5 14. O-O O-O 15. Qf3 d5 16. cxd5 fxe4 17. Bxe4 Rb8 18. Rad1 Qd7 19. d6 Rb6 20. Qd3 Rd8 21. Bxh7+ Kh8 22. Qe3 Rxd6 23. Rxd6 Qxd6 24. Bb1 f5 25. Nc2 e4 26. b4 Be5 27. g3 Qf6 28. Qe2 Kg7 29. Rd1 Rxd1+ 30. Qxd1 f4 31. Qe2 e3 32. fxe3 fxg3 33. hxg3 Qg6 34. Qg2 Bxg3 35. Ne1 Qg5 36. Qb2+ Kg8 37. Nf3 Qxe3+ 38. Kg2 Bf4 39. Qb3+ Qxb3 40. axb3 Bd6 41. Kf2 Bxb4 42. Ke3 Bc5+ 43. Kd2 Kf7 44. Be4 Ke6 45. Kc2 Kd6 46. Ne1 a5 47. Nd3 Bd4 48. Bg6 Bd7 49. Bf7 Bc6 50. Bg6 Ke6 51. Nf4+ Ke5 52. Nd3+ Kf6 53. Bh5 Kf5 54. Be2 Ke4 55. Bh5 Ke3 56. Bg6 Bd7 57. Nb2 Bg7 58. Nd3 Kd4 59. Nb2 Bc6 60. Nd3 Bf8 61. Nb2 Bd6 62. Nd3 a4 63. bxa4 bxa4 64. Nc1 a3 65. Ne2+ Kc4 66. Bf7+ Kb4 67. Nc3 Bd7 68. Na2+ Ka5 69. Nc3 Bb4 70. Kb3 Bg4 71. Bd5 Bf8 72. Bf7 Bf5 73. Bd5 Kb6 74. Bf7 Kc6 75. Bd5+ Kc5 76. Bf7 Bg7 1/2-1/2 [Event "WYb14"] [Site "Halkidiki GRE"] [Date "2003.10.31"] [Round "9"] [White "Carlsen, M."] [Black "Zhigalko, S."] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "B33"] [WhiteElo "2450"] [BlackElo "2460"] [PlyCount "66"] [EventDate "2003.10.23"] [Source ""] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8. Na3 b5 9. Bxf6 gxf6 10. Nd5 Bg7 11. Bd3 Ne7 12. Nxe7 Qxe7 13. c4 f5 14. O-O O-O 15. Qf3 d5 16. cxd5 fxe4 17. Bxe4 Rb8 18. Rad1 Qd7 19. d6 Rb6 20. Bd5 Rxd6 21. Bb3 Kh8 22. Rxd6 Qxd6 23. Rd1 Qg6 24. Qd5 f5 25. Qd6 Qg5 26. Qc6 e4 27. Nc2 Bxb2 28. g3 Bg7 29. Nd4 e3 30. Nf3 Qe7 31. Re1 Bb7 32. Rxe3 Bxc6 33. Rxe7 Bxf3 0-1 [Event "Attila Schneider Mem"] [Site "Budapest HUN"] [Date "2003.12.11"] [Round "11"] [White "Cernousek, L."] [Black "Banusz, T."] [Result "0-1"] [ECO "B33"] [WhiteElo "2302"] [BlackElo "2361"] [PlyCount "160"] [EventDate "2003.12.01"] [Source ""] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8. Na3 b5 9. Bxf6 gxf6 10. Nd5 Bg7 11. Bd3 Ne7 12. Nxe7 Qxe7 13. c4 f5 14. O-O O-O 15. Qf3 d5 16. cxd5 fxe4 17. Bxe4 Rb8 18. Rad1 Qd7 19. Bb1 Rb6 20. Qb3 Rd6 21. f4 f5 22. Nc2 Kh8 23. Ne3 e4 24. Rd2 Qa7 25. Kh1 Bd7 26. a3 a5 27. Re1 Qb6 28. Ba2 Rc8 29. Qd1 a4 30. Qh5 Rh6 31. Qe2 Rd6 32. Rc2 Rxc2 33. Qxc2 b4 34. Nc4 b3 35. Qd2 Qd4 36. Qxd4 Bxd4 37. Nxd6 bxa2 38. Ra1 e3 39. Rxa2 e2 40. Ra1 Bf2 41. Nf7+ Kg7 42. Ne5 Bb5 43. Nf3 Bc4 44. Re1 Kf6 45. h3 h5 46. h4 Ke7 47. g3 Bxg3 48. Kg2 Bxe1 49. Nxe1 Kd6 50. Kf2 Kxd5 51. Ke3 Bb5 52. Nf3 Ba6 53. Ne1 Kc4 54. Kxe2 Kb3+ 55. Kd2 Kxb2 56. Nc2 Bb7 57. Nd4 Be4 58. Nb5 Bc6 59. Nd4 Bd7 60. Nc2 Kb3 61. Kd3 Bc8 62. Nd4+ Kxa3 63. Kc3 Bd7 64. Nc2+ Ka2 65. Nb4+ Kb1 66. Nc2 Kc1 67. Nb4 a3 68. Kb3 Be6+ 69. Kxa3 Kd2 70. Nc6 Ke3 71. Kb2 Kxf4 72. Kc3 Kg4 73. Kd3 Kxh4 74. Nd4 Bd7 75. Ke3 Kg4 76. Nf3 Kg3 77. Ne5 f4+ 78. Ke4 h4 79. Ng6 h3 80. Nxf4 h2 0-1
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