Author: Geert van der Wulp
Date: 08:16:38 03/02/04
Go up one level in this thread
On March 02, 2004 at 11:11:48, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >On March 02, 2004 at 02:18:27, Gerd Isenberg wrote: > >>On March 01, 2004 at 18:22:59, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >> >>>On March 01, 2004 at 15:41:04, Gerd Isenberg wrote: >>> >>>>On March 01, 2004 at 10:07:17, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>> >>>>>On February 29, 2004 at 21:49:41, Omid David Tabibi wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>The tournament format for WCCC that was originally decided was: >>>>>> >>>>>>-------- >>>>>>http://www.cs.unimaas.nl/icga/news/events/Israel/event.html >>>>>> >>>>>>The format for the 12th World Computer Chess Championship WCCC2004 will be: >>>>>>5-round Swiss, after which the top 4 + 4 teams get to play a 2-round elimination >>>>>>at each stage, and the bottom teams continue to compete for the 9th spot playing >>>>>>a 6-round Swiss. >>>>>>-------- >>>>>> >>>>>>However, since a large number of amateur programmers expressed their disapproval >>>>>>of this system, we have decided to change the format so that it will attract the >>>>>>largest number of programmers. Currently the two options are: >>>>>> >>>>>>A) Like the original format, but with re-entry: >>>>>> >>>>>>Divide the participants into two groups. Conduct 5 rounds Swiss, and top 4 from >>>>>>each group (total of 8) will qualify for next stage, which will be a knockout (2 >>>>>>rounds quarter-final, 2 rounds semi-final, 2 rounds final). The other programs >>>>>>will continue with 6 more Swiss rounds. However, the *difference* is: the losers >>>>>>in the knockout will join the other programs (who haven't qualified for knockout >>>>>>phase) in continuing with additional Swiss rounds (with all the points they >>>>>>scored in the first 5 rounds and in the knockout phase). >>>>>> >>>>>>The advantage of this method over the original one is that the amateurs will get >>>>>>more chances of playing against commercial programs after the first 5 rounds. >>>>>> >>>>>>B) 11 rounds Swiss. >>>>>> >>>>>>In Graz WCCC everything was basically over after 7 rounds. The last 4 rounds >>>>>>didn't change anything at all. That is the reason why we are trying to choose a >>>>>>more exciting format. >>>>>> >>>>>>However, our primary goal is maximizing participation. So, if 11 rounds Swiss >>>>>>will attract the largest number of participants, then we will opt for it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>We are interested in hearing your opinion, especially the opinion of programmers >>>>>>who are considering participation in WCCC. >>>>>> >>>>>>Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>>Omid David Tabibi (davoudo@cs.biu.ac.il), >>>>>>Bar-Ilan University. >>>>> >>>>>The question is not about the number of rounds; that will be 11 in any case (in >>>>>9 days). The question is how to use those 11 rounds (in such a way that everyone >>>>>plays exactly 11 rounds). >>>>> >>>>>Currently we have two options: >>>>> >>>>>A) Original knockout format with re-entry (described above) >>>>> >>>>>B) 11 rounds Swiss >>>>> >>>>>Which of these two options you prefer, A or B? >>>> >>>>If the number of participanst is about 16... >>>> >>>>What about following slightly modified B) variation, a kind of "delayed" swiss >>>>system to keep the tension a bit longer? >>>> >>>>For the first (4-6) rounds playing swiss with two about equal strong groups with >>>>about (even) quantity and quality, eg. >>>>(1,4,5,8,9,12,13,16)<->(2,3,6,7,10,11,14,15) or similar. >>>> >>>>Then reunion both groups and continue with standard swiss, and there are still >>>>some thrilling rounds to go. >>> >>>I would only favour such a system when you can give me written garantuee that i >>>am NOT in the shredder group. >>> >>>I ended divided 5th last 2 years. I fear when Tim Foden is not there, that i for >>>sure will be placed 5th and end up in the same group like Shredder. >>> >>>Shredder is like a sure zero for me. >>> >>>Against Fritz with white i can at least at least draw (didn't lose much with >>>white against fritz last years) so i just need white against fritz. In world >>>champs 2003 i still got a good position against fritz with black (fritz started >>>to really do stupid moves) then of course diep decided it was time for madness >>>and played Nb4?? and was directly lost. Fritz played 2 good moves and it was >>>game over. >>> >>>So i have at least the illusion that i make a chance against Fritz. it's using >>>simple knowledge but very well debugged. Shredder is different level simply >>>IMHO. More knowledge, so you can't fool it simply. It just basically makes 1 >>>mistake and that that it's forward pruning too much. I welcome the day that >>>shredder searches 30 ply in middlegame :) >>> >>>I hope you realize what i mean. Who gets into group A or B? >>> >>>I want in group B when Shredder is in A. >>> >>>Junior or Fritz in B, i don't care for it. Please do. >>> >>>Hydra, please do i fought against fundamentalistic arabs in grammar school i'll >>>fight 'em again, 1 head or 8 it doesn't matter :) >>> >>>From a huge distance i smell that division in groups A and B will be >>> >>>A: 1,3,5,7... Shredder, Junior, DIEP, ??? >>>B: 2,4,6,8... Fritz, Hydra, Falcon, MOVEI >>> >>>Being divided 5th last 2 years i fear that will be group A with Shredder. >>> >>>Playing 2 times against Shredder in 1 tournament is just too much :) >> >>That's not what i mean, you can't play an opponent twice. A "normal" 11-round >>swiss with some "restictions" during the first rounds to delay some hot matches >>between favorites in initial disjoint groups. > >Are YOU going to make the pairing, or some amateurs from my uni? > >I can dream pairings, i've been competition leader, but no one except Jaap can >and he's not making pairings either. Hand pairings were a disaster in London >2000. It f*** up everything there. > >But it's fine with me if you make a group, DIEP ISICHESS MOVEI and other group >Shredder Fritz Hydra Junior and you make hand pairings then. > >You really want to go make hand pairings? Every round we will see again protests >then by junior team like in london2000 because pairing is not according to swiss >rules. Perhaps if Jonny shows up you have a second guy there who can make swiss >pairings. Otherwise 1, and he's not going to make the pairings for you. > >Just use the program and play like that. When there is a clear winner in round >9, and the same guy still is there round 11 then he really deserved to win. > >Easy. > >That wasn't the case now. We had a tie remember? > >>Because the Graz event was basically over after 7 rounds... > >that's the biggest nonsense i ever heard. > >Why were all those guys sweatting so much rounds 8..11 then? > >> >> >>> >>>You see i would prefer group B any time of the day. >>> >>>>Cheers, >>>>Gerd Yes, I didn't understand the argument in the first place. About the 4 last rounds that did not matter any more. Did you mean that no positions changed any more, or that the winner was already certain of victory 4 rounds before the end? In both cases it is clear that the winner really deserved to win. Regards, Geert
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