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Subject: Re: arasan2 position number 15

Author: John Merlino

Date: 12:23:14 03/03/04

Go up one level in this thread


On March 03, 2004 at 13:48:07, Joachim Rang wrote:

>On March 03, 2004 at 13:39:40, John Merlino wrote:
>
>>On March 03, 2004 at 10:38:23, Joachim Rang wrote:
>>
>>>On March 03, 2004 at 10:14:50, Uri Blass wrote:
>>>
>>>>I wonder if the solution f6 is correct solution
>>>>
>>>>[D]r3r1k1/6p1/1pqp2Np/2p1nP1P/N1PbPQ2/1P3PR1/P2K4/7R w - - 0 1
>>>>
>>>>I could not find a convincing line after f6 Nxc4+ but maybe I miss something.
>>>>
>>>>Movei could not solve it at 5 minutes per position on A1000 becasue after few
>>>>minutes it changed its mind from f6 to Nc3 after failing low at depth 10.
>>>>
>>>>Uri
>>>
>>>I think you just discovered an error in this testsuite. Most engines fail low
>>>over  and over after:
>>>
>>>1.f6+ Nxc4+ 2. bxc4 Qxa4 3. f7+ Kh7
>>>
>>>more (engine)-analysis will follow.
>>>
>>>regards Joachim
>>
>>I don't think there is a problem. After forcing those moves, Chessmaster 9000
>>(SKR personality on a P4-2.4) still shows a good score for White. I think
>>(perhaps inadvertantly) the point is that f6 is the BEST move and that the
>>engine shouldn't fail TOO low on f6 Nxc4+...? Not sure....
>>
>>Perhaps the point is to see that, after the above moves, White must play 4.Rc1
>>rather than 4.fxe8=Q which leads to a draw.
>>
>>I also believe, after a lot of analysis and playing around with lines, that f6
>>does not necessarily lead to a forced win. I DO believe that it is the best
>>move, however.
>>
>>Here is what The King says:
>>
>>Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
>>27:10	2/14	1.42	387147633	4.Rc1 Qxa2+ 5.Rc2 Qa5+ 6.Ke2 Qa4
>>					7.Rc1 Rf8 8.Nxf8+ Rxf8 9.Rg6 Qa2+
>>					10.Qd2 Qa7 11.Qd3 Qxf7 12.Rb1 Qf4
>>					13.Rxb6
>>
>>jm
>
>
>go deeper in the variations. For example after 4.Rc1 Qxa2+ 5.Rc2 Qa5+ 6.Ke2 Qa4
>7.Rc1 Rf8 8.Nxf8+ Rxf8 9.Rg6
>9... Qa7! draws.
>
>What score does CM9SKR shows after Nc3?

My analysis stopped at 9.Rg6, because CM9 has a difficult time determining the
best move here. Depending on the time control, it could play Rg6, Qd2 or Kf1.
All have evals in the neighborhood of +0.5 for White, but the evals were slowly
dropping. Which, as I said, leads me to believe that f6 does NOT necessarily
lead to a forced win, but that it is the best move.

After 1.Nc3, CM9SKR says Black wins after 1...Nxc4+ 2.bxc4 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3:

Time	Depth	Score	Positions	Moves
0:00	1/4	-0.04	9967		1...b5 2.cxb5 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3 Qxb5
					4.Kb2
0:00	1/5	0.42	45754		1...b5 2.cxb5 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3 Qxb5
					4.Nxe5 Qb4+ 5.Kc2 dxe5
0:00	1/6	0.42	148074		1...b5 2.f6 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3 b4+ 4.Kd2
					Rxa2+ 5.Ke3 Qb7 6.fxg7
0:02	1/7	0.78	434070		1...b5 2.f6 Qc7 3.Nxe5 Bxe5 4.Qxe5
					dxe5 5.Rxg7+ Qxg7 6.fxg7 bxc4
0:04	1/7	0.69	743221		1...d5 2.cxd5 Qf6 3.Na4 Kh7 4.Nxe5
					Bxe5
0:10	1/8	0.00	2007590		1...d5 2.Nxd5 Rxa2+ 3.Kd1 Ra1+
					4.Kc2 Ra2+ 5.Kd1
0:24	1/9	0.07	5005359		1...d5 2.exd5 Qf6 3.Rc1 Bxc3+ 4.Rxc3
					Nf7 5.a4 Nd6 6.Re3 Qb2+ 7.Kd1
1:05	1/10	0.00	13307035	1...d5 2.exd5 Qf6 3.Rc1 Nxc4+ 4.bxc4
					Bxc3+ 5.Rxc3 Rxa2+ 6.Rc2 Qa1 7.Rxa2
					Qxa2+ 8.Kc3 Qa1+ 9.Kd3 Qb1+ 10.Kd2
					Qa2+
3:42	1/11	0.00	46789493	1...d5 2.f6 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3 d4+ 4.Kc2
					Rxa2+ 5.Kd1 Ra1+ 6.Kc2 Ra2+
4:24	1/11	-0.05	55885892	1...Nxc4+ 2.bxc4 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3 Qa4
					4.Qc1 Qb4+ 5.Kd3 Ra3+ 6.Ke2 Rc3
					7.Qd1 Qb2+ 8.Qd2 Rc2 9.Rd1 Rxd2+
					10.Rxd2
10:45	1/12	-1.13	138913431	1...Nxc4+ 2.bxc4 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3 Qa4
					4.Qc1 Qb4+ 5.Kd3 Ra3+ 6.Ke2 Rc3
					7.Qe1 Qxc4+ 8.Kf2 Rc2+ 9.Ke3 d5
					10.Rg4 dxe4 11.fxe4 Rxa2
18:15	1/13	-1.13	238745890	1...Nxc4+ 2.bxc4 Bxc3+ 3.Kxc3 Qa4
					4.Qc1 Qb4+ 5.Kd3 Ra3+ 6.Ke2 Rc3
					7.Qe1 Qxc4+ 8.Kf2 Rc2+ 9.Ke3 d5
					10.Rg4 dxe4 11.fxe4 Rxa2

So it looks like 1.f6 is definitely best....

jm



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