Author: Dann Corbit
Date: 19:21:18 03/04/04
Go up one level in this thread
On March 03, 2004 at 21:01:36, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>On March 03, 2004 at 14:33:50, Dann Corbit wrote:
>
>>On March 03, 2004 at 13:43:49, Bas Hamstra wrote:
>>[snip]
>>>I fact the sole purpose of TSCP was education. "Look, this is the guts of a
>>>chess program in 1000 lines, everyone can do it. Take it and improve it". And it
>>>still is highly succesful as such. I think there is a BIG difference between
>>>basing upon TSCP, which was written in 3 days and hardly more than a framework
>>>to learn from, and basing upon Crafty which is a fully developed state of the
>>>art chess program with > 5 years work in it.
>>
>>E:\tscp>copy *.? blob
>>board.c
>>book.c
>>data.c
>>DATA.H
>>DEFS.H
>>eval.c
>>main.c
>>protos.h
>>search.c
>>tscp.c
>> 1 file(s) copied.
>>
>>E:\tscp>wc blob
>>2314 Lines, 8742 Words, 66517 Characters
>>(tscp.c is a tiny stub I used that looks like this):
>>/*
>> ** This strange little beastie has only one purpose:
>> ** To allow the compiler to inline like a madman.
>> */
>>int king[2];
>>#include "book.c"
>>#include "search.c"
>>#include "board.c"
>>#include "data.c"
>>#include "eval.c"
>>#include "main.c"
>>
>>With 2000 lines of code, that is about 200 hours of effort. Given a 40 hour
>>work week, that would be 5 weeks to do it. I expect if you ask him about how
>>much time (including all the revisions, documentation, etc.) it will have been
>>at least that much effort he put into it. If you can do it in 3 days, then you
>>are a miracle worker.
>
>Doesn't this also count blank lines and comments? I mean
>
>#include <stio.h>
>#include <stdlib.h>
>
>//----------------------------------------------------------------
>/
>// This is my program
>//
>//----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>main()
>
>{ //--------------------------------------------------------------
> //
> // The following line is printing kukeleku
> //
> //--------------------------------------------------------------
>
> printf("kukeleku");
>
> return 0;
>
>}
>
>Wow, I just wrote 22 lines of code! (worth $220) No, I remember Tom himself
>saying that he wrote the original version in 3 days and it was close to 1000
>lines of code at the time.
I think Tom was either exaggerating or used Stobor as a model and just stripped
away stuff he was not using. The fact that it has doubled in size and has had
dozens of releases also shows the effort that went into it.
The metric assumes that you write useful comments. Plied against TSCP it would
provide a correct measure. Plied against your program it would inflate the
figure.
>>200 hours times $100/hour = $20,000 worth of effort.
>>
>>Allow me to quote from Tom's readme.txt file:
>>
>>
>>
>> "LEGAL STUFF
>>
>>According to copyright law, you are not allowed to distribute copies of TSCP
>>or anything that's derived from TSCP without my authorization.
>>
>>Version 1.4 of TSCP is the first version to include copyright notices, but
>>previous versions are also protected under law. If you are distributing an
>>earlier version of TSCP or a derivative work without my authorization, you are
>>acting illegally.
>>
>>For more information about copyrights, visit this web page:
>>http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/"
>>
>>I don't think you can say the intentions any more clearly than that. Tom is a
>>very reasonable person. I expect that anyone who asks will get permission. For
>>sure, though, the use of TSCP as a framework deserves a mention of thanks in any
>>readme.txt file for a derivative work. Yes, even if ten years later there is
>>not a single line of TSCP left in it. In my view, the accreditation should be
>>perpetual.
>>
>>> With GNU somewhere in the middle.
>>>"Basing" on Crafty and not mentioning it stinks, IMO. Not many will have a
>>>problem with doing so with TSCP.
>>
>>But those people are doing something just as wrong as if they had used crafty.
>>It is unethical, illegal (and in my view) immoral.
>
>Well it's not only a binary matter of right and wrong, the degree of evil is
>also a factor. Basing on 3 day's work and modify it for a year, pretending it is
>yours is not the same as basing on 5 year's work and modify it for a year and
>pretend you just created a top-program. It's the difference between stealing a
>cookie and committing a murder. Both are unethical, immoral, illegal. But there
>is a difference.
To me, the difference is between stealing $20,000 and one million dollars.
Equally reprehensible, I would say.
And how hard is it to say:
"This program used ideas from TSCP."
and asking Tom for permission?
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