Author: Uri Blass
Date: 03:21:27 03/06/04
Go up one level in this thread
On March 06, 2004 at 06:10:51, Sandro Necchi wrote: >On March 06, 2004 at 06:06:41, Uri Blass wrote: > >>On March 06, 2004 at 05:45:36, Sandro Necchi wrote: >> >>>On March 06, 2004 at 05:16:23, Thorsten Czub wrote: >>> >>>>On March 06, 2004 at 04:17:14, Sandro Necchi wrote: >>>> >>>>>Yes, but on this matter I do not agree with you. If a program has no learning >>>>>feature and will play a lost game more than once it has to be tested as it is >>>>>and the double game included in the list. >>>> >>>>yes - here we disagree. in times of 6502 cpu's with 8 KB ram and 32 KB rom >>>>learning was really no issue. >>> >>>Yes, because no one had it, but I was already thinking something about it... >>> >>>> >>>>the learning was implemented first in the 68000 machines and some more expensive >>>>fidelity machines, then came mephisto with the 68000 machines. >>> >>>Yes, but not real learning...the first commercial program with a good learning >>>was M-Chess Pro. 5.0 >>>As Marty stated too it was a my idea developped by him. >>> >>>> >>>>I see no big sense in testing forte A versus Par excellence doing always the >>>>same opening. >>> >>>Here we fully agree. I guess you have no idea how much I have been making >>>pressure to Marty to make a true learning feature available... >>> >>>Maybe to let you understand my way to see things I should specify what follows: >>> >>>1. I see a computer chess/chess program like a chess player. >>>2. I think the SSDF should give us a reliable data about how strong is a program >>>compared to previous ones or others which I already have. >>>3. If we enter these programs in a tournament to find out how strong they are if >>>they have no openings book or leaning features they will score less and the way >>>the SSDF does (to me) to test the programs against each other is to simulate a >>>tournament performance against other players; chess programs only as many strong >>>chess players would ask too much money or would refuse to play against them. >>>This is why the double or triple or what ever games should be included. >>>4. If you want these weaknesses to be removed in those programs you have to >>>leave them in order to force the programmers to do something about. This is the >>>only way to get real improvements. >>> >>>> >>>>>Why? >>>>>Because the owner will be facing the same situation in a match against it and >>>>>since this effects the streght of the program it must be included to get more >>>>>realistic data. >>>> >>>>which "owner" would play always the same game against the computer ?? >>>> >>>>how boring. >>> >>>Here we perfectly agree, but still in the rating list these weaknesses should be >>>included as effecting the overall strenght... >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I mean the test should give the best possible idea of the strenght of a program >>>>>EXACTLY as it is. So if a feature is not included in a program, which it >>>>>effecting the program strenght, the test should be made that this feature is >>>>>relavant in the final score. >>>> >>>>?? >>>> >>>>yes here we disagree. i would not count doubles again. >>> >>>Well, if you enter a program in a tournament could you stop the second game and >>>asked to start again because the program is going to play exactly the same lost >>>opening? >> >>No but I can change the opening book between rounds(not during the game) >>manually in a tournament. >> >>I do not remember tournaments against humans when the programmers were not >>allowed to change the book between rounds. >> >>Uri > >That's because you have joined this field recently. > >With the dedicated chess boards it was soo and with the first PCs chess programs >too. > >I do not think the opening book was changed for Shredder 7 in Argentina or I am >wrong? > >Sandro The question is if there was a rule not to allow changing the opening book between games. If there is no rule and if the program has no learning I accept operator who care about the results to change the book between games. I do not know what is the case with other programs but changing the book between games is not hard task with movei because I only need to change a text file and it is a job of a few minutes. Uri
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