Author: Vasik Rajlich
Date: 05:57:28 03/17/04
Go up one level in this thread
On March 17, 2004 at 08:19:21, Joachim Rang wrote: >On March 16, 2004 at 18:58:46, Dann Corbit wrote: > >>See this thread: >>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?354948 > >well after some study with Shredder 8 it is my opinion, that the testposition is >wrong in that aspect, that it is not clear whether Rxe6 is the only move to win >the game. But I am quite sure, that it is a winning move, but Qh3 dould be >winning also (most likely I think). > >The main variation after Rxe6 is the following one: > >1.Rxe6 Qxe6 2. Rde1 Qf5 (Qd6 3.Bf4 h5 4. Qxc8 Rxc8 5. Bxd6 Bxd6 6. Bxd5+ +-) 3. >Qxf5 gxf5 (all other moves loose instantly) 4. Bxd5+ Kg6 (only move): > >Now Shredder 8 gives + 2.36 at depth 25. This is not a prove but it seems >unlikely that this position is not won for white. > >As i posted before I get +1.98 wiht a 24ply-search for 1. Qh3 in the >startposition, which also seems rather convincing, that this move will lead to a >win too. But I was too lazy to create variations here). > >regards Joachim > Shredder is very optistic in evaluating endgames. Here, for example, take the PV in the 25-ply analysis, which starts with 5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.g2-g3 b5-b4 8.Kg1-g2. The PV continues with 8. .. a5, but instead black can just play 8. .. bxa3 9. bxa3 Na5. Now let's play vs Shredder for a few moves: 10. Be6 Bxa3 11. Bxc8 Rxc8 12. Ra1 Bb4 13. Bd2 Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Rc2 15. Nf3 Nc4 16. Rxa7+ Kf8 17. Nh4 Ne3+ 18. Kf3 Nd1 19. Kf4 Rxf2+ 20. Nf3 Nc3 21. Rxh7 Ne4 22. h4 Nd2 (finally scores go under +2.0) 23. Ke3 Rxf3+ 24. Kxd2 Rxg3 and black is drawing. I think SMK's point in scoring endgames in this way is that it's very pleasant in a tournament to play a position like this, there are no risks. If you win two pawns in some unclear middlegame, there might be something you didn't evaluate or calculate. In this sort of position, only good things can happen. That's why Shredder gives +2, not because it's flat-out winning. Cheers, Vas >P.S.: >New game >2r1r3/p3b2p/1pn2pkB/3B1p2/3P4/P4N2/1P3PPP/4R1K1 w - - 0 1 > >Analysis by Shredder 8: > >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >10.Re1xe6 > +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.g2-g3 b6-b5 8.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 9.d4-d5 Nc6-e5 >10.Nf3xe5 f6xe5 11.Re1xe5 Be7-d6 12.Re5xf5 Bd6xf4 13.Rf5xf4 > +- (1.62) Depth: 14/24 00:00:02 738kN >5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 b6-b5 7.Re1-c1 Nc6-b8 8.Rc1xc8 Re8xc8 9.Nf3-h4 Kg7-f8 >10.Bd5-b7 Rc8-c3 11.Nh4xf5 Nb8-c6 12.a3-a4 Nc6xb4 13.a4xb5 > ± (1.38) Depth: 15/26 00:00:07 2369kN >5.Bh6-f4 Nc6xd4 6.Nf3xd4 Be7xa3 7.Re1xe8 Rc8xe8 8.Nd4-f3 Ba3xb2 9.Nf3-h4+ Kg6-g7 >10.Kg1-f1 a7-a5 11.Nh4xf5+ Kg7-f8 12.Nf5-d6 Kf8-e7 > ± (1.33) Depth: 16/30 00:00:23 7471kN >5.Bh6-f4 Nc6xd4 6.Nf3xd4 Be7xa3 7.Re1xe8 Rc8xe8 8.g2-g4 Ba3xb2 9.g4xf5+ Kg6-g7 >10.Nd4-e6+ Kg7-h8 11.Kg1-f1 Re8-c8 12.Kf1-e2 Rc8-c2+ 13.Ke2-e3 a7-a5 > ± (1.31) Depth: 17/32 00:00:43 15168kN >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 h7-h5 7.b2-b4 b6-b5 8.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 9.d4-d5 Nc6-b8 > ± (1.32) Depth: 17/43 00:00:53 19035kN >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Nc6-e5 9.Nf3-d4 Ne5-d3 >10.Be6xf5 Nd3xe1 11.Nd4-e6+ Kg7-f7 12.Ne6-g5+ f6xg5 13.h2-h4 g5xf4 > ± (1.32) Depth: 17/43 00:01:03 22267kN >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 b6-b5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Nc6-e5 9.Nf3-d4 Ne5-c4 >10.Bd2-c1 Nc4-e5 11.Nd4xb5 Ne5-d3 12.Re1-f1 Nd3xc1 > +- (1.43) Depth: 18/36 00:02:07 44465kN >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 8.Re1-c1 Nc6-b8 9.Rc1xc8 Re8xc8 >10.Nf3-h4 Kg7-f8 11.Nh4xf5 Be7xb4 12.a3xb4 > +- (1.63) Depth: 19/36 00:03:26 71268kN >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Re1-c1 Nc6-b8 8.Rc1xc8 Re8xc8 9.Nf3-h4 Be7-f8 >10.Nh4xf5+ Kg7-g6 11.Bd5-e4 Rc8-d8 12.Bd2-f4 Kg6-f7 13.d4-d5 Rd8-e8 14.f2-f3 >a7-a5 15.b4xa5 > +- (1.69) Depth: 20/38 00:06:04 127926kN >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >10.h2-h4 Rc2-b2 11.g2-g3 Nd8-f7 12.Bd5-c6 Re8-c8 13.Kg1-h2 > +- (1.69) Depth: 21/40 00:10:18 218263kN >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >10.h2-h4 Rc2-b2 11.g2-g3 h7-h5 12.b4-b5 Be7-b4 13.Bd2-e3 Nd8-c6 > +- (1.84) Depth: 22/41 00:17:10 366131kN, tb=1 >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >10.h2-h4 Rc2-b2 11.g2-g3 h7-h5 12.b4-b5 Be7-b4 13.Bd2-e3 f5-f4 14.Be3xf4 > +- (1.79) Depth: 23/44 00:29:23 635510kN, tb=1 >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >10.g2-g3 Nd8-f7 11.Kg1-g2 Nf7-d6 12.Bd5-c6 Re8-c8 13.b4-b5 > +- (1.76) Depth: 24/46 00:55:18 1220985kN, tb=1 >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.g2-g3 a7-a6 8.Kg1-g2 Nc6-a5 9.Bd5-e6 Rc8-c6 >10.Be6-d7 Re8-d8 11.Re1xe7+ Kg7-f8 12.Bd7xc6 Kf8xe7 13.d4-d5 > +- (2.01) Depth: 25/44 02:02:56 2697532kN, tb=4 >5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.g2-g3 b5-b4 8.Kg1-g2 a7-a5 9.Bd5xc6 Rc8xc6 >10.d4-d5 Rc6-c8 11.d5-d6 b4xa3 12.d6-d7 Be7-f8 13.Re1xe8 > +- (2.36) Depth: 25/47 02:26:20 3183940kN, tb=4
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