Author: Vasik Rajlich
Date: 01:36:20 03/18/04
Go up one level in this thread
On March 17, 2004 at 18:50:45, Anthony Cozzie wrote: >On March 17, 2004 at 17:12:19, Vasik Rajlich wrote: > >>On March 17, 2004 at 13:07:09, Anthony Cozzie wrote: >> >>>On March 17, 2004 at 12:44:23, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>> >>>>On March 17, 2004 at 10:41:00, Vincent Diepeveen wrote: >>>> >>>>>On March 17, 2004 at 09:58:37, martin fierz wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>On March 17, 2004 at 08:57:28, Vasik Rajlich wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>On March 17, 2004 at 08:19:21, Joachim Rang wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On March 16, 2004 at 18:58:46, Dann Corbit wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>See this thread: >>>>>>>>>http://www.talkchess.com/forums/1/message.html?354948 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>well after some study with Shredder 8 it is my opinion, that the testposition is >>>>>>>>wrong in that aspect, that it is not clear whether Rxe6 is the only move to win >>>>>>>>the game. But I am quite sure, that it is a winning move, but Qh3 dould be >>>>>>>>winning also (most likely I think). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The main variation after Rxe6 is the following one: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>1.Rxe6 Qxe6 2. Rde1 Qf5 (Qd6 3.Bf4 h5 4. Qxc8 Rxc8 5. Bxd6 Bxd6 6. Bxd5+ +-) 3. >>>>>>>>Qxf5 gxf5 (all other moves loose instantly) 4. Bxd5+ Kg6 (only move): >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Now Shredder 8 gives + 2.36 at depth 25. This is not a prove but it seems >>>>>>>>unlikely that this position is not won for white. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>As i posted before I get +1.98 wiht a 24ply-search for 1. Qh3 in the >>>>>>>>startposition, which also seems rather convincing, that this move will lead to a >>>>>>>>win too. But I was too lazy to create variations here). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>regards Joachim >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Shredder is very optistic in evaluating endgames. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Here, for example, take the PV in the 25-ply analysis, which starts with >>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.g2-g3 b5-b4 8.Kg1-g2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The PV continues with 8. .. a5, but instead black can just play 8. .. bxa3 9. >>>>>>>bxa3 Na5. Now let's play vs Shredder for a few moves: 10. Be6 Bxa3 11. Bxc8 Rxc8 >>>>>>>12. Ra1 Bb4 13. Bd2 Bxd2 14. Nxd2 Rc2 15. Nf3 Nc4 16. Rxa7+ Kf8 17. Nh4 Ne3+ 18. >>>>>>>Kf3 Nd1 19. Kf4 Rxf2+ 20. Nf3 Nc3 21. Rxh7 Ne4 22. h4 Nd2 (finally scores go >>>>>>>under +2.0) 23. Ke3 Rxf3+ 24. Kxd2 Rxg3 and black is drawing. >>>>>> >>>>>>another thing to keep in mind is that shredder's PV is unreliable. you can't >>>>> >>>>>this is a very good remark. >>>>> >>>>>Also note that the +1.9 for qh3 is basically because of the bad black king and >>>>>white having more space. >>>>> >>>>>If you close your eyes, what position do you prefer to play Rxe6 or Qh3? >>>>> >>>>>I cannot understand that there is so many beginners here who prefer to play the >>>>>very complex qh3 because 1 program which prunes even itself and its mainline >>>>>says +1.9. >>>>> >>>>>After Rxe6 it is very clear. White is dead won and the only question is whether >>>>>you win it eyes closed or whether you can also win it when asleep. >>>>> >>>>>That a computer doesn't score Rxe6 like +4.0 nor +5.0 is because white is down >>>>>the exchange and a piece in shredder is already like 4.5 pawns or so, not to >>>>>mention a rook. So pawns simply do not compensate for being an exchange down. >>>>> >>>>>So the 2.5 score shredder shows for Rxe6 you should see as +10.0 or so from >>>>>human viewpoint. White can do nothing wrong and still will win. >>>>> >>>>>If i take some 1800 rated kids from my chessclub i'm sure that after Rxe6 gets >>>>>played, that they will win from me with white. If they have white and play Qh3 i >>>>>still win from them. >>>>> >>>>>Rxe6 leads to either mate, some big material win, or a dead won endgame. >>>>> >>>>>Even deep study i didn't find anything to delay a quick loss from black. >>>>> >>>>>However the number of moves and nullmoves you can do in the process is really a >>>>>lot. 25 ply of shredder is like 3 nullmoves and 3 moves collecting material for >>>>>white. What's beyond those nullmoves? >>>>> >>>>>I prefer to play a 25 ply searching shredder above a 15 ply searching shredder. >>>>> >>>>>It can only make mistakes with such dubious forward pruning or see more problems >>>>>for it :) >>>>> >>>> >>>>Sheesh, tough crowd :-) Ok, this time I played the position against Shredder 7 >>>>(don't have my normal setup here), 1 min/move for Shredder, Athlon XP 2600+. >>>>Result: draw. Didn't even need to take any moves back. >>>> >>>>Shredder 7 - V. Rajlich, Warszawa 17.3.04 (BTS2830 #5 after 1. Rxe6 Qxe6 2. Re1 >>>>Qf5 3 Qxf5 gxf5 4. Bxd5+ Kg6) >>>> >>>>5. Bf4 Nxd4 6. Nxd4 Bxa3 7. Rxe8 Rxe8 8. g4 Bxb2 9. Nxf5 Bc1 10. Bd6 a5 11. Kf1 >>>>h5 12. f3 hxg4 13. fxg4 Kg5 14. Bf3 Rh8 15. h4 Rxh4+ 16. Nxh4 Kxh4 17. Ke2 Kg5 >>>>18. Kd3 f5 and adjudicated 1/2-1/2 >>>> >>>>Vincent you can laugh at Shredder's play, but does Diep have the knowledge to >>>>win this endgame? >>>> >>>>Cheers, >>>>Vas >>> >>>What is your background? IM, but with BS in CS? 2350 FIDE? I'm sort of curious. >>> >>>anthony >>> >> >>Hi Anthony, >> >>All right, I'll fix up my profile a little bit. >> >>Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea if the board collected some other info, >>pics, maybe CVs. I'm curious too about some people who post here - plus, we'd >>know what Swami looks like. >> >>BTW, I see you're from DC. Not by any chance a 'Skins fan? >> >>Vas > >Its just that most IMs I have met are fully devoted to chess. > >I'm more of a basketball guy then a football guy. > >anthony > Yeah, true, there are some slightly crazy chess players in the U.S. ;-) Vas >>>>>>just move down several moves of the PV and then let it search again, you have to >>>>>>let it think at every move :-( >>>>>> >>>>>>my impression about the position after 1.Rxe6 Qxe6 2. Rde1 Qf5 3. >>>>>>Qxf5 gxf5 4. Bxd5+ Kg6 is that it is not a clear win - there is definitely some >>>>>>work ahead here. perhaps stronger players see this differently, but i think >>>>>>black has some hope left.... >>>>>> >>>>>>cheers >>>>>> martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I think SMK's point in scoring endgames in this way is that it's very pleasant >>>>>>>in a tournament to play a position like this, there are no risks. If you win two >>>>>>>pawns in some unclear middlegame, there might be something you didn't evaluate >>>>>>>or calculate. In this sort of position, only good things can happen. That's why >>>>>>>Shredder gives +2, not because it's flat-out winning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>Vas >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>P.S.: >>>>>>>>New game >>>>>>>>2r1r3/p3b2p/1pn2pkB/3B1p2/3P4/P4N2/1P3PPP/4R1K1 w - - 0 1 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Analysis by Shredder 8: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Be7-d6 9.Bf4xd6 Re8xe6 >>>>>>>>10.Re1xe6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.58) Depth: 13/13 00:00:00 27kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.g2-g3 b6-b5 8.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 9.d4-d5 Nc6-e5 >>>>>>>>10.Nf3xe5 f6xe5 11.Re1xe5 Be7-d6 12.Re5xf5 Bd6xf4 13.Rf5xf4 >>>>>>>> +- (1.62) Depth: 14/24 00:00:02 738kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 b6-b5 7.Re1-c1 Nc6-b8 8.Rc1xc8 Re8xc8 9.Nf3-h4 Kg7-f8 >>>>>>>>10.Bd5-b7 Rc8-c3 11.Nh4xf5 Nb8-c6 12.a3-a4 Nc6xb4 13.a4xb5 >>>>>>>> ± (1.38) Depth: 15/26 00:00:07 2369kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Nc6xd4 6.Nf3xd4 Be7xa3 7.Re1xe8 Rc8xe8 8.Nd4-f3 Ba3xb2 9.Nf3-h4+ Kg6-g7 >>>>>>>>10.Kg1-f1 a7-a5 11.Nh4xf5+ Kg7-f8 12.Nf5-d6 Kf8-e7 >>>>>>>> ± (1.33) Depth: 16/30 00:00:23 7471kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-f4 Nc6xd4 6.Nf3xd4 Be7xa3 7.Re1xe8 Rc8xe8 8.g2-g4 Ba3xb2 9.g4xf5+ Kg6-g7 >>>>>>>>10.Nd4-e6+ Kg7-h8 11.Kg1-f1 Re8-c8 12.Kf1-e2 Rc8-c2+ 13.Ke2-e3 a7-a5 >>>>>>>> ± (1.31) Depth: 17/32 00:00:43 15168kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 h7-h5 7.b2-b4 b6-b5 8.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 9.d4-d5 Nc6-b8 >>>>>>>> ± (1.32) Depth: 17/43 00:00:53 19035kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Nc6-e5 9.Nf3-d4 Ne5-d3 >>>>>>>>10.Be6xf5 Nd3xe1 11.Nd4-e6+ Kg7-f7 12.Ne6-g5+ f6xg5 13.h2-h4 g5xf4 >>>>>>>> ± (1.32) Depth: 17/43 00:01:03 22267kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 b6-b5 7.Bd5-e6 Rc8-d8 8.d4-d5 Nc6-e5 9.Nf3-d4 Ne5-c4 >>>>>>>>10.Bd2-c1 Nc4-e5 11.Nd4xb5 Ne5-d3 12.Re1-f1 Nd3xc1 >>>>>>>> +- (1.43) Depth: 18/36 00:02:07 44465kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 8.Re1-c1 Nc6-b8 9.Rc1xc8 Re8xc8 >>>>>>>>10.Nf3-h4 Kg7-f8 11.Nh4xf5 Be7xb4 12.a3xb4 >>>>>>>> +- (1.63) Depth: 19/36 00:03:26 71268kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 h7-h5 7.Re1-c1 Nc6-b8 8.Rc1xc8 Re8xc8 9.Nf3-h4 Be7-f8 >>>>>>>>10.Nh4xf5+ Kg7-g6 11.Bd5-e4 Rc8-d8 12.Bd2-f4 Kg6-f7 13.d4-d5 Rd8-e8 14.f2-f3 >>>>>>>>a7-a5 15.b4xa5 >>>>>>>> +- (1.69) Depth: 20/38 00:06:04 127926kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >>>>>>>>10.h2-h4 Rc2-b2 11.g2-g3 Nd8-f7 12.Bd5-c6 Re8-c8 13.Kg1-h2 >>>>>>>> +- (1.69) Depth: 21/40 00:10:18 218263kN >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >>>>>>>>10.h2-h4 Rc2-b2 11.g2-g3 h7-h5 12.b4-b5 Be7-b4 13.Bd2-e3 Nd8-c6 >>>>>>>> +- (1.84) Depth: 22/41 00:17:10 366131kN, tb=1 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >>>>>>>>10.h2-h4 Rc2-b2 11.g2-g3 h7-h5 12.b4-b5 Be7-b4 13.Bd2-e3 f5-f4 14.Be3xf4 >>>>>>>> +- (1.79) Depth: 23/44 00:29:23 635510kN, tb=1 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.b2-b4 a7-a5 7.Re1-e6 Nc6-d8 8.Re6xb6 a5xb4 9.a3xb4 Rc8-c2 >>>>>>>>10.g2-g3 Nd8-f7 11.Kg1-g2 Nf7-d6 12.Bd5-c6 Re8-c8 13.b4-b5 >>>>>>>> +- (1.76) Depth: 24/46 00:55:18 1220985kN, tb=1 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.g2-g3 a7-a6 8.Kg1-g2 Nc6-a5 9.Bd5-e6 Rc8-c6 >>>>>>>>10.Be6-d7 Re8-d8 11.Re1xe7+ Kg7-f8 12.Bd7xc6 Kf8xe7 13.d4-d5 >>>>>>>> +- (2.01) Depth: 25/44 02:02:56 2697532kN, tb=4 >>>>>>>>5.Bh6-d2 Kg6-g7 6.Bd2-f4 b6-b5 7.g2-g3 b5-b4 8.Kg1-g2 a7-a5 9.Bd5xc6 Rc8xc6 >>>>>>>>10.d4-d5 Rc6-c8 11.d5-d6 b4xa3 12.d6-d7 Be7-f8 13.Re1xe8 >>>>>>>> +- (2.36) Depth: 25/47 02:26:20 3183940kN, tb=4
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