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Subject: Re: Do programs need Openning books for correspondance chess???

Author: Dann Corbit

Date: 14:29:08 03/27/04

Go up one level in this thread


On March 27, 2004 at 17:01:00, Dann Corbit wrote:

>On March 27, 2004 at 13:53:48, Derek Paquette wrote:
>
>>New game
>>r1bqk1nr/pppp1ppp/2n5/b7/2BpP3/2P2N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 b kq - 0 1
>>
>>Analysis by Shredder 8:
>>
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 1/3   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0
>>  ³  (-0.63)   Depth: 5/17   00:00:00
>>1...dxc3 2.Qd3 Nf6 3.Nxc3 0-0 4.Bb2
>>  ³  (-0.53)   Depth: 6/15   00:00:00
>>1...Nf6 2.Nxd4 Ne5 3.Bd5 c6 4.g4
>>  ³  (-0.54)   Depth: 6/15   00:00:00
>>1...Nf6 2.Ng5 0-0 3.Ba3 d6 4.cxd4
>>  ³  (-0.60)   Depth: 6/15   00:00:00
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 d5 3.Bb5 Ne4 4.Bxc6+ bxc6 5.Qa4 Bxc3 6.Nxc3 Nxc3 7.Qxc6+ Bd7
>>  ³  (-0.45)   Depth: 7/19   00:00:00  54kN
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 Ne4 3.Qxd4 Nxd4 4.Bxf7+ Kxf7 5.Ng5+ Nxg5
>>  ³  (-0.70)   Depth: 8/19   00:00:00  115kN
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 Ne4 3.Qb3 d6 4.cxd4 0-0 5.Qd3
>>  ³  (-0.70)   Depth: 8/19   00:00:00  120kN
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 Ne4 3.Qb3 Nxc3 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Bxf7+ Kf8
>>  ³  (-0.45)   Depth: 9/24   00:00:01  142kN
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 d5 3.Bb5 Ne4 4.Bxc6+ bxc6 5.Qa4 Bxc3 6.Qxc6+ Qd7 7.Qxc7 Qxc7
>>  ³  (-0.45)   Depth: 9/24   00:00:01  212kN
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 d5 3.Bb5 Ne4 4.cxd4 Bd7 5.Qb3 Bc8
>>  =  (-0.21)   Depth: 10/26   00:00:01  347kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qe7 3.Bg5 Nf6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 d6 6.Bxf6 Qxf6 7.Qe5+ Nxe5
>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 10/29   00:00:02  529kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qe7 3.Nxc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nxe5 5.Nxe5 Qe6 6.Bxe6
>>  =  (-0.22)   Depth: 10/29   00:00:02  556kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nf6 5.Bxf6 gxf6 6.Bxf7+ Qxf7 7.Qxb7 Bxb7
>>  ³  (-0.47)   Depth: 11/27   00:00:04  1003kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nf6 5.Bxf6 Qxf6 6.Nd5 Qg6 7.Nf4 Qf6
>>  ³  (-0.56)   Depth: 11/27   00:00:05  1237kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nh6 5.Qa3 Bb4 6.Qb2 0-0 7.Nd5 Qxe4 8.Bxh6
>>gxh6 9.Nxc7
>>  ³  (-0.33)   Depth: 12/33   00:00:07  1793kN
>>1...Nf6 2.cxd4 Nxe4 3.Bd5 Nf6 4.Bxc6 bxc6 5.Qe1+ Bxe1
>>  ³  (-0.34)   Depth: 12/37   00:00:10  2652kN
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 d5 3.Bb5 Ne4 4.Bxc6+ bxc6 5.Qa4 Bxc3 6.Nxc3 Nxc3 7.Qxc6+ Bd7 8.Qc5
>>Ne2+ 9.Kh1 c6 10.Nxd4 Nxd4 11.Qxd4
>>  ³  (-0.35)   Depth: 12/37   00:00:12  3154kN
>>1...Nf6 2.e5 Ne4 3.Qc2 Nxc3 4.Bg5 Nb4 5.Qc1 Nxb1 6.Bxd8 Kxd8
>>  =  (-0.11)   Depth: 13/36   00:00:17  4694kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nh6 5.Qa3 Bb4 6.Qb2 0-0 7.Qa3 Bxa3
>>  =  (-0.12)   Depth: 13/36   00:00:19  5294kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.Bd3 0-0 7.e5 Nd5 8.Qc4 Qe6
>>  ³  (-0.41)   Depth: 13/36   00:00:22  6145kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.Bxf6 Qxf6 7.e5 Qe7 8.Qa3
>>  ³  (-0.65)   Depth: 14/39   00:00:35  9387kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nh6 5.Nd5 0-0 6.Bd3 Re8 7.Nf4 Qxe4 8.Bxe4
>>Rxe4
>>  ³  (-0.49)   Depth: 15/39   00:00:55  14629kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.Rfe1 0-0 7.Bd3 d6 8.e5
>>dxe5 9.Bxg6
>>  ³  (-0.54)   Depth: 16/45   00:01:46  28157kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nf6 5.Bxf6 Qxf6 6.Nd5 Qd8 7.Qa3 d6 8.Bb5 0-0
>>9.Bxc6
>>  ³  (-0.49)   Depth: 17/47   00:03:17  52444kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.e5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nge7 5.Ne2 0-0 6.Nf4 Qe4 7.Bxf7+ Kh8 8.Nd3 d6
>>  ³  (-0.68)   Depth: 18/52   00:09:23  148771kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.e5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nge7 5.Ne2 0-0 6.Nf4 Qe4 7.Bxf7+ Kh8 8.Nd3 b6
>>9.Ng5 Qf5 10.f4
>>  ³  (-0.64)   Depth: 19/50   00:14:58  227754kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.e5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nge7 5.Ne2 0-0 6.Nf4 Qe4 7.Bd3 Qb4 8.Bxh7+
>>Kxh7 9.Ng5+ Kg8 10.Qh3 Qxf4 11.Bxf4 Nd4
>>  ³  (-0.39)   Depth: 20/45   00:19:50  293603kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.e5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Nge7 5.Ne2 0-0 6.Nf4 Qe4 7.Bd3 Qb4 8.Bxh7+
>>  ³  (-0.39)   Depth: 20/53   00:27:50  421826kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.Rae1 0-0 7.Bd3 h6 8.e5 Nd5
>>9.Qc4 Qh5 10.Bxh6 Nb6 11.Bg5
>>  ³  (-0.38)   Depth: 21/55   01:02:41  953418kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.Rfe1 0-0 7.Bd3 d5 8.exd5
>>Nxd5 9.Qc2 Qh5 10.Be4 Ncb4
>>  ³  (-0.51)   Depth: 22/57   02:05:59  1935716kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.Rfe1 0-0 7.Bd3 d5 8.exd5
>>Nxd5 9.Qb3 Bf5 10.Bxf5 Qxf5 11.Qxb7 Ncb4 12.Re5
>>  ³  (-0.56)   Depth: 23/61   04:07:39  3837544kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.e5 Ne4 7.Qe3 h6 8.Bh4 0-0
>>9.Bd5 d6 10.Qxe4 dxe5 11.Qxg6 Kh8
>>  ³  (-0.31)   Depth: 24/59   05:41:24  5237053kN
>>1...dxc3 2.Qb3 Qf6 3.Bg5 Qg6 4.Nxc3 Bxc3 5.Qxc3 Nf6 6.e5 Ne4 7.Qe3 0-0 8.Bd3 d5
>>9.exd6 Bf5 10.Be7 Nxd6 11.Nh4
>>  =  (-0.25)   Depth: 24/63   08:13:41  7597816kN
>
>As you can see, Shredder 8 still does not get it.  Nor does any other chess
>engine I have tried.  However, the score is much closer to reality than other
>chess engines.
>
>Here is Shredder 7.04's analysis of :
>[D]r1bqk2r/ppppnppp/2n5/b7/2BpP3/2P2N2/P4PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq -
>
>Which is the position for white after black moves the knight to e7 instead of
>capturing the pawn on d3:
>
>Analysis from E:\bozuk.epd
>3/27/2004 1:52:07 AM Level: 30000 Seconds
>Analyzing engine: Shredder 7.04
>
>1) bqk2r/ppppnppp/2n5/b
>    Searching move:
>    Best move (Shredder 7.04): c3xd4
>    Not found in: 8:20:00
>    2   00:00 -0.41   c3xd4 00
>    2+  00:00 -0.26   Nf3xd4 Ne7d5
>    2   00:00 -0.11   Nf3xd4 Nc6e5
>    3   00:00  0.17   Nf3xd4 Nc6e5 Bc4b3
>    4-  00:00 -0.12   Nf3xd4 Nc6e5 Bc1g5 Ne5xc4 Bg5xe7
>    4   00:00 -0.44   Nf3xd4 Nc6e5 Bc4b3 00
>    4+  00:00 -0.39   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Bc8h3
>    4   00:00 -0.22   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5
>    4+  00:00 -0.21   Bc1b2 d7d5 e4xd5 Bc8e6 d5xc6 Be6xc4 c6xb7 Ba5xc3 b7xa8Q
>    4   00:00 -0.21   Bc1b2 00 c3xd4 d7d6
>    5-  00:00 -0.46   Bc1b2 00 Bc4xf7+ Kg8xf7 Qd1xd4 Nc6xd4
>    5   00:00 -0.61   Bc1b2 d4xc3 Nb1xc3 00 Nc3d5 d7d6
>    5+  00:00 -0.60   Nf3xd4 Nc6xd4 c3xd4 Ba5e1
>    5+  00:00 -0.25   Nf3xd4 00 Bc1g5
>    5   00:00 -0.12   Nf3xd4 Nc6e5 Bc4b3 00 Bc1g5
>    5+  00:00 -0.11   c3xd4 Nc6xd4 Qd1xd4 d7d5
>    5+  00:00  0.24   c3xd4 Nc6e5 Nf3xe5 d7d5
>    5   00:00  0.28   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Bc1g5
>    6-  00:00  0.03   c3xd4 d7d6 d4d5 Nc6e5 Bc1h6
>    6   00:00  0.02   c3xd4 d7d6 d4d5 Nc6e5 Nf3xe5 d6xe5
>    7   00:00  0.24   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Bc1g5 f7f6 Qd1b3 h7h6
>    8   00:01  0.35   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Qd1b3 Nc6e7 Bc1g5 f7f6 Qb3a3 f6xg5
>Qa3xa5
>    9-  00:02  0.10   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Qd1b3 Nc6e7 Bc1g5 f7f6 Nf3h4 f6xg5
>Bc4xd5
>    9   00:02  0.04   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Bc1a3 Bc8e6 Nb1d2 Ba5b4 Ba3xb4
>Nc6xb4
>   10+  00:04  0.29   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Qd1b3 Nc6e7 Bc1g5 00 Bc4xd5 Ne7g6
>Bg5xd8
>   10   00:04  0.29   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Qd1b3 Nc6e7 Bc1g5 c7c6 Bg5xe7
>Ke8xe7 Qb3e3+ Nd5xe3
>   11   00:11  0.24   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Bc1a3 Bc8e6 Bc4b5 Nd5b4 Ba3xb4
>Ba5xb4 Bb5xc6+ b7xc6 Nf3e5
>   12   00:23  0.11   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Qd1b3 Nc6e7 Bc1a3 c7c6 Ba3xe7
>Ke8xe7 Bc4xd5 Qd8xd5 Qb3a3+ Ke7e8 Nb1c3
>   13   01:40  0.22   c3xd4 Ba5b6 Nb1c3 00 d4d5 Nc6a5 Bc4d3 f7f5 d5d6 c7xd6
>Bc1g5 Na5c4
>   14   02:57  0.03   c3xd4 Ba5b6 Nb1c3 00 d4d5 Nc6a5 Bc4e2 d7d6 Nc3a4 f7f5
>Na4xb6 a7xb6 Qd1a4 f5xe4 Qa4xe4
>   15   07:09  0.27   c3xd4 d7d5 e4xd5 Ne7xd5 Bc1a3 Ba5b4 Ba3xb4 Nd5xb4 Rf1e1+
>Bc8e6 Bc4xe6 f7xe6 Re1xe6+ Ke8f7 Qd1b3 Qd8d7 Re6xc6+ Qd7e6 Rc6xe6
>   16   14:28  0.21   c3xd4 00 d4d5 Nc6b8 Qd1a4 Ba5b6 d5d6 c7xd6 Nb1c3 Nb8c6
>Bc1f4 d6d5 e4xd5 Ne7g6 Bf4d6
>   17   29:28  0.10   c3xd4 00 d4d5 Nc6b8 d5d6 c7xd6 Bc1b2 d6d5 Qd1d4 f7f6
>Bc4xd5+ Kg8h8 Bd5b3 Nb8c6 Qd4c4 d7d6 Nb1d2 Nc6e5 Qc4e6
>   18   2:20:38  0.12   c3xd4 Ba5b6 Nf3g5 d7d5 e4xd5 Nc6a5 d5d6 Na5xc4 Qd1a4+
>Ne7c6 Rf1e1+ Nc4e5 Re1xe5+ Ke8f8 d6xc7 Bb6xc7 Bc1a3+ Kf8g8 Ng5xf7 Kg8xf7 Qa4b3+
>Kf7g6 Qb3d3+ Kg6f7 Qd3b3+ Kf7g6 Qb3d3+ Kg6f7 Qd3b3+
>   19   4:37:24  0.02   c3xd4 00 d4d5 Nc6b8 d5d6 c7xd6 Bc1b2 d6d5 e4xd5 d7d6
>Nb1d2 Rf8e8 Nd2b3 Ba5b6
>   20   8:01:19  0.08   c3xd4 00 d4d5 Nc6b8 Qd1a4 Ba5b6 d5d6 c7xd6 Nb1c3 d6d5
>Nc3xd5 Ne7xd5 Bc4xd5 Nb8c6 Bc1g5
>   3/27/2004 10:12:10 AM, Time for this analysis: 08:20:00, Rated time: 8:20:00
>
>I am also analyzing the position after the pawn capture right now.  It has only
>been 4 hours so far.  I analyzed this position years ago and found the GM advice
>to be sound.  I am trying again with modern equipment and programs to see if I
>can improve the machine analysis.  The last time I tried, you had to make two
>moves along the pv before the programs could get an inkling of what is actually
>going on.

Current output from Shredder 7.04 after the pawn gobble:

w: Shredder 7.04  UCI 537 MB:
 2-  00:00 -1.22   Bc1g5 Ng8f6 Bg5xf6 g7xf6
 2   00:00 -0.78   Bc1g5 Ng8f6 Bg5xf6 g7xf6
 2   00:00 -0.70   Bc1f4 Ng8f6
 2   00:00 -0.66   Qd1d5 Qd8f6
 3   00:00 -0.35   Qd1d5 Qd8f6 Rf1d1
 4-  00:00 -0.60   Qd1d5 Qd8e7 Rf1d1 d7d6 Qd5xf7+ Qe7xf7
 4   00:00 -0.81   Qd1d5 Qd8e7 Rf1d1 Ng8f6 Qd5xf7+ Qe7xf7
 4+  00:00 -0.80   Qd1d3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 d7d6
 4   00:00 -0.53   Qd1d3 Ng8f6 Bc1a3 Ba5b4 Ba3xb4 Nc6xb4
 4   00:00 -0.51   Qd1b3 Qd8e7 Rf1d1 Qe7f6
 5+  00:00 -0.26   Qd1b3 Ng8h6 Nb1xc3 00 Bc1xh6 g7xh6
 5   00:00 -0.20   Qd1b3 Qd8e7 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bc1a3
 6-  00:00 -0.45   Qd1b3 Qd8e7 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bc4xf7+ Qe7xf7 Nf3g5 Qf7xb3
 6   00:00 -0.46   Qd1b3 Qd8e7 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bc1a3 d7d6 Ra1d1 Ba5xc3 Qb3xc3
Qe7xe4
 7   00:01 -0.30   Qd1b3 Qd8e7 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bc1g5 Ba5xc3 Qb3xc3 00 Bg5xf6 Qe7xf6
Qc3xf6 g7xf6
 8   00:02 -0.19   Qd1b3 Qd8e7 Nb1xc3 Ba5xc3 Qb3xc3 Ng8f6 Bc1f4 d7d6 Rf1e1
 9   00:04 -0.43   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1e3 Ng8e7 Be3g5 Qf6g6 Bg5xe7 Nc6xe7 Qb3xc3
Ba5xc3 Bc4xf7+ Qg6xf7
10   00:14 -0.58   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bg5xf6 Qg6xf6 Nc3d5
Qf6g6 Nd5f4 Qg6f6
11   00:28 -0.34   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ng8h6 Qb3a3 Ba5b4 Qa3b3 00
Nc3d5 Bb4d6 Qb3d3
12   00:52 -0.51   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bg5xf6 Qg6xf6 Nc3d5
Qf6h6 Qb3a3 d7d6 Bc4b5 00 Bb5xc6 b7xc6 Qa3xa5 c6xd5 e4xd5
13   02:05 -0.51   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bg5xf6 Qg6xf6 Nc3d5
Qf6h6 Qb3a3 d7d6 Bc4b5 00 Bb5xc6 b7xc6 Qa3xa5
14   04:22 -0.52   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ba5xc3 Qb3xc3 Ng8f6 e4e5 Nf6e4
Qc3e3 Ne4xg5 Nf3xg5 Nc6xe5 Qe3xe5+ Qg6e6
15   09:23 -0.49   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bg5xf6 Qg6xf6 Nc3d5
Qf6d8 Qb3a3 d7d6 Bc4b5 00 Bb5xc6 b7xc6 Qa3xa5
16   18:53 -0.49   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ng8f6 Bg5xf6 Qg6xf6 Nc3d5
Qf6d8 Qb3a3 d7d6 Bc4b5 00 Bb5xc6 b7xc6 Qa3xa5 c6xd5 e4xd5
17   47:23 -0.35   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ba5xc3 Qb3xc3 Ng8f6 Bc4d3 00
Ra1e1 h7h6 e4e5 Nf6d5 Qc3c2 Nd5b4 Bd3xg6 Nb4xc2 Bg6xc2
18   1:34:11 -0.45   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ba5xc3 Qb3xc3 Ng8f6 e4e5
Nf6e4 Qc3e3 00 Bc4d3 d7d5 e5xd6/ep Rf8e8 Rf1e1 Bc8f5 d6xc7
19   3:55:32 -0.27   Qd1b3 Qd8f6 Bc1g5 Qf6g6 Nb1xc3 Ba5xc3 Qb3xc3 Ng8f6 e4e5
Nf6e4 Qc3e3 00 Bc4d3 f7f5 e5xf6/ep d7d5 Bd3xe4 d5xe4 Nf3h4







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