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Subject: Re: Ruffian's most peculiar way of pondering

Author: Frank Quisinsky

Date: 06:43:55 03/28/04

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On March 28, 2004 at 05:14:07, Uri Blass wrote:

>On March 27, 2004 at 22:38:40, Odd Gunnar Malin wrote:
>
>>On March 27, 2004 at 21:13:53, Peter Berger wrote:
>>
>>>On March 27, 2004 at 21:07:11, Odd Gunnar Malin wrote:
>>>
>>>>On March 27, 2004 at 19:51:33, Peter Berger wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>For about a month I have waited for someone to bring this up now. Occasionally I
>>>>>thought I should post about it, but then I thought someone else (a much more
>>>>>knowledgeable guy at best) would do it anyway sooner or later. I decided to just
>>>>>do it now and not bother to do it very well at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>This is about Ruffian 2.1.0 I bought at Lokasoft's ( it probably applies to
>>>>>other Ruffian 2 versions too).
>>>>>
>>>>>Now how does Ruffian 2 ponder?
>>>>>
>>>>>Usually programs assume the second move of the PV as being played, and then
>>>>>think as if it were their own move in the meantime. If the expected move gets
>>>>>played indeed, some (loads of at times ) time has been saved - else the time is
>>>>>lost (despite some potentially useful entries in the hashtable).
>>>>>
>>>>>Another approach ( inferior) is to just think as if you were the opponent during
>>>>>ponder and rely on savings from the hashtable you achieved -you get some useful
>>>>>entries in the hashtable anyway, but this can't be an optimal strategy IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>>Now Ruffian _does_ think as if it were the opponent during pondering, too,  but
>>>>>in case the expected move is played it does the same as the usual strategy does
>>>>>during pondering but one ply further. The second move in the PV is the move to
>>>>>be played in case time has already run out, else some time has been saved of
>>>>>course. Again, if another move has been played, the time is lost.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>If the engine is running as wb engine there is two methods to show the pv-line:
>>>>
>>>>1. Send a hint-move for your opponent move and then send the pv in normal way
>>>>eg. starting with your next move.
>>>>2. Put the hintmove in front of the pv for each time you send the pv.
>>>>
>>>>You are sure it isn't this second method you observe, eg. do it ever change the
>>>>first move in the pv.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Feeling more positive now as I at least thought about this obvious explanation
>>>:).
>>
>>Still a bit strange since if it runs as uci there isn't an otion to show a pv
>>like you describe so it will/should be quiet if it don't use the ponder move.
>>And running as WB CP have problem showing a pv that start with the players move
>>so I guess you look at the pv in the log-window.
>>
>>>Yes, it will change the first move; else I would obviously make no sense at
>>>all.
>>
>>Well playing the second move from a pv-line doesn't make sense neither, maybe it
>>does some advanced pondering with switching pondermove if current pondermove
>>lower the score for the player too much eg. is a bad move.
>>
>>Odd Gunnar
>
>I assume based on reports that I read Ruffian performs worse with pondering on
>that it does something wrong so I will be surprised if it does something that
>make sense instead of what peter describes.
>
>Uri

Hi Uri,

I reported Per-Ola the bug after my long time match vs. Shredder and wrote here
about my opinion.

But it seems its more a bug in combination with delete HASH in combination with
ponder.

Best
Frank



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